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  • Erik
    Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
    • Sep 2003
    • 653

    • New England


    #226
    I'm laughing here... I hope you take this lightly. I am. I am kidding here, sort of:

    But.

    Who are you? Just come out and say it there's nothing to hide, kicking things off, I'm Erik. Hi and welcome to PlanetNautique. Your stay will be an enjoyable one. This whole site has one, one single bad egg. You will be fine here.

    I've been here awhile, and can sniff out the bozos vs the non-bozos. You're in the non-Bozo category.
    You've been here 2 days, droppin' knowledge like a very high end engineer. So, who are you? Don't even have to say a name - just an affiliation. Please. In what part of this project do you have a vested interest?

    Comment

    • Shooter
      • Aug 2025
      • 264

      • Orange County California

      • 2003 SANTE 210

      #227
      Maybe he is one of those "Skunkworks" guys...if he told you who he is, he would have to kill you!

      Comment

      • Oletimeskier
        • Oct 2009
        • 80



        #228
        Skunkworks

        Originally posted by Shooter View Post
        Maybe he is one of those "Skunkworks" guys...if he told you who he is, he would have to kill you!
        Theres a thought

        Comment

        • IMPACT-EV1
          • Jan 2011
          • 86

          • indy


          #229
          I am who I am and know what I know, yes I have many years of R&D experience building prototpyes for major companies. Yes I have first hand experince with Electric vehicles and hybrids and stuff you've never even heard of or thought of either, So yes I know how the system works and why they did what they did and the reason they did it that way, question it if you choose but in the end you might not be as right as you feel you are.

          If you want to add up every penny that actually has been spent then the number is higher, but if you look at it from a business plan perspective and the additional moneys required above the current overhead then it's very financially feasible with limited risk especially when that risk is shared by more than one enity and you have stock readly available to use, money is all ready spent the additional cost is minor. Yes if you where starting from ground zero the cost to develope is high but this isn't the case, batteries have all ready been developed, the motors have all ready been developed, the boat haul has all ready been developed, the inverters and controler too, so with that it becomes an exercise in packaging and refinement of the excisiting components.

          Are they using the best batteries out there? no they are not, do the batteries need further developement yes to a degree, nickle metal hydride batteries or crude AGM batteries are a good starting point from a cost perspective, lithium ion's have there limitations when applied on a large scale, are there batteries 4X, 10X, 20X better out there? yes there is, if you know the players in the EV world, can they be applied to the marine segment yes, have they in the past no, but that happens after prove of concept which they have done so I would think that is the direction of the team moving forward.

          better battery life, smaller more efficent motors and refined packaging of the system it's closer to production than the majority of you think. What's the typical retail mark-up 100% 200% 300% do you really think they only make 10g's off a boat? try at least half of the cost or more is gravy and put in the companies pocket and that is after all of the over head is figured in, that boat that sells for 70K cost the company maybe 30k to build and equipe or in that general range otherwise your just going to loose money because the buisness plan isn't based on volume it's based on quality and demand for a superior product with a minum break even point based on low volumes. Your not designing a pocket fisherman for RonCo where your selling on small marges and high volumes to make your moeny.
          Last edited by IMPACT-EV1; 01-28-2011, 03:24 PM.

          Comment

          • Erik
            Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
            • Sep 2003
            • 653

            • New England


            #230
            Ok.

            Welcome to the site dude. I am who I am too.

            We'll treat you right. Just don't be the stealth "I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know" person.

            You sound like a good addition to the gang. Again, welcome.

            Comment

            • IMPACT-EV1
              • Jan 2011
              • 86

              • indy


              #231
              Originally posted by Shooter View Post
              Maybe he is one of those "Skunkworks" guys...if he told you who he is, he would have to kill you!
              no I don"t work there nor am I allowed to talk about what I work on, but it does get installed by them.

              Comment

              • Erik
                Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
                • Sep 2003
                • 653

                • New England


                #232
                Called it.

                Comment

                • Oletimeskier
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 80



                  #233
                  Originally posted by IMPACT-EV1 View Post
                  What's the typical retail mark-up 100% 200% 300% do you really think they only make 10g's off a boat? try at least half of the cost or more is gravy and put in the companies pocket and that is after all of the over head is figured in, that boat that sells for 70K cost the company maybe 30k to build and equipe or in that general range otherwise your just going to loose money because the buisness plan isn't based on volume it's based on quality and demand for a superior product with a minum break even point based on low volumes. Your not designing a pocket fisherman for RonCo where your selling on small marges and high volumes to make your moeny.
                  Oh no....Cats out of the bag on how much markup is in a ski / wakeboard boat.....And the consumer is getting ..."well" ______(insert word)
                  Impact is right...In this economic environment with production of ski / wakeboard boats being down what 65-70% this is what you can expect if you so choose to jump on the new boat band wagon.

                  Comment

                  • Chattwake
                    • Apr 2008
                    • 341

                    • Chattanooga

                    • 2010 SANTE 230 - Sold 2009 SANTE 230 - Sold 2008 SANTE 230 - Sold

                    #234
                    Originally posted by 2gofaster View Post
                    The fit and finish and choice of materials of the Axis boats that I have seen are NOT comparable to a nautique, MC or even a Malibu. Maybe you got good one. Push on the side of yours. I did the other day. I could deflect the gunnel of a new A22 over 1 inch.
                    BTW, I couldn't get the "gunnel" on an A22 that I messed around with at the local boat show to deflect like you supposedly did. I could generate some slight movement if I leaned and pushed very very had right on the center of the side of the hull in the middle of the boat, but I was also able to do that with the other boats at the show.

                    You want to see some "deflection" check out these videos I that I saw.

                    http://www.woofiles.com/dl-225771-ApXVvA4O-powertower

                    http://www.woofiles.com/dl-225772-KMffyWTw-powertower2
                    2012 Axis A22 - on order
                    2011 Axis A22 - sold
                    2010 SANTE 230 - sold
                    2009 SANTE 230 - sold
                    2008 SANTE 230 - sold
                    2007 VLX - sold
                    2002 XStar - sold
                    1990 Prostar 190 - sold

                    www.chattwake.com

                    Comment

                    • wake_fun
                      1,000 Post Club Member
                      • Jul 2003
                      • 1330

                      • CA

                      • 1995 Super Sport

                      #235
                      WOW.
                      What boats are those?
                      Photo Album
                      Ballast Install 1
                      Ballast Install 2
                      Amp Install
                      PPass Install
                      Alternator Install

                      Comment

                      • Chattwake
                        • Apr 2008
                        • 341

                        • Chattanooga

                        • 2010 SANTE 230 - Sold 2009 SANTE 230 - Sold 2008 SANTE 230 - Sold

                        #236
                        I'm not sure. I didn't take those videos. I just happened to get forwarded a copy of them and the only reason I posted them was because of the comment that was made about "deflection".
                        2012 Axis A22 - on order
                        2011 Axis A22 - sold
                        2010 SANTE 230 - sold
                        2009 SANTE 230 - sold
                        2008 SANTE 230 - sold
                        2007 VLX - sold
                        2002 XStar - sold
                        1990 Prostar 190 - sold

                        www.chattwake.com

                        Comment

                        • wake_fun
                          1,000 Post Club Member
                          • Jul 2003
                          • 1330

                          • CA

                          • 1995 Super Sport

                          #237
                          Exactly right!
                          The difference in MSRP price and dealer price is HUGE! Example, a $93K MSRP boat has a dealer price of about $59K. So when someone thinks a great deal is $75K or $80K, think again.


                          Originally posted by IMPACT-EV1 View Post
                          What's the typical retail mark-up 100% 200% 300% do you really think they only make 10g's off a boat? try at least half of the cost or more is gravy and put in the companies pocket and that is after all of the over head is figured in, that boat that sells for 70K cost the company maybe 30k to build and equipe or in that general range otherwise your just going to loose money because the buisness plan isn't based on volume it's based on quality and demand for a superior product with a minum break even point based on low volumes. Your not designing a pocket fisherman for RonCo where your selling on small marges and high volumes to make your moeny.
                          Photo Album
                          Ballast Install 1
                          Ballast Install 2
                          Amp Install
                          PPass Install
                          Alternator Install

                          Comment

                          • swc5150
                            1,000 Post Club Member
                            • May 2008
                            • 2240

                            • Eau Claire, WI

                            • MasterCraft Prostar

                            #238
                            If you're buying factory-direct, I guess you could make somewhat of an argument on the profit margin. A dealer must floorplan that $59k (cost) boat, at $5-600 a month. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to pay any more than I have to, but dealers have to stay in business as well, and gross margin can be a far cry from net margin.
                            '08 196LE (previous)
                            '07 196LE (previous)
                            2 - '06 196SE's (previous)

                            Comment

                            • Mikeski
                              1,000 Post Club Member
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 2908

                              • San Francisco, CA

                              • Current 2005 SV 211, due for upgrade! GS22 or GS24 perhaps? Previous

                              #239
                              Originally posted by IMPACT-EV1 View Post
                              Also in a hybrid the gas motor is just a huge generator and does no actual driving of the the vehicle the drive motors are used 100% of the time weather it be in 100% electric or hybrid mode.
                              I guess you have never seen the planetary gearbox of a Prius??? The gas and electric motors work together to drive the third shaft connected to the wheels. The control is primarily done by the electric since it is perfectly happy running in reverse when needed.

                              Originally posted by IMPACT-EV1 View Post
                              regenerative braking to charge the pack what a major joke that is, can't and won't help the amount generated is so small you get maybe an extra minute of drive time from a 60-0 stop, why is it used? to stop the vehicle more efficently is why and why most hybrid don't use the system.
                              Agreed

                              Originally posted by IMPACT-EV1 View Post
                              Why not one motor enstead of two, because then you'll have to cool the stator and add more weight and complexity. The motors are smaller so that the heat generated during operation is minimal and doesn't require cooling the stator like you have to with large Kw motors, you make them big enough you have to cool the rotor as well and that is a major trick to pull off.
                              Well at least put them on the common shaft and get rid of that gearbox.

                              Originally posted by IMPACT-EV1 View Post
                              And to the one suggesting that a couple of EV-1 motors waer used doesn't know what he's talking about, for one they are not extrenally grounded like the ones used on the SN-E also there are no cooling lines going to the drive motors either and they are about twice the size too.
                              That's me. I don't know what the source of the motors is so you are right about that, but I highly doubt they were designed from the drawing board for this application (or should I say misapplication). My point is that I feel they could have done it better without a gearbox. You defensive answer here suggests to me that you are very close to this design. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you were from Canada or in the battery business.

                              Originally posted by IMPACT-EV1 View Post
                              and the R&D cost isn't as high as you think, there are off the self drive motors on the market all ready that will do a better job than what is currently used as well as better battery technology too, the most expensive part was the gear box and the gear sets with-in it.
                              Again, get rid of that gearbox, please. Sounds like you didn't really agree with the motor selection either.

                              As a side note this is not a big industry. Nobody in the boat manufacturing space is getting extremely wealthy. This particular project is a great example of how money is spent carelessly and why these boats cost so much more then they should.

                              Comment

                              • Oletimeskier
                                • Oct 2009
                                • 80



                                #240
                                Originally posted by Mikeski View Post
                                This particular project is a great example of how money is spent carelessly and why these boats cost so much more then they should.
                                Exactly.....

                                Comment

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