ZO surging solved & 2009 - future SAN 210 - ZO only

[JWAT]

This is not a true statement from Zero Off if they actually made it. The 220 and the 230 have just as much problem. It was a design problem with the antenna picking up the satellites at the same time trying to keep the boat at a constant speed with the right weight for the best wake. Funny that the new antenna and soft ware fixed the problem. Sounds like Zero Off needs to come to the table and pay for the up grade.

I agree. This is obviously a problem with the zero off hardware/software since everyone that has updated these things has had no more problems or very minimal problems as compared to before the upgrade. I just purchased a new 08 210 and emailed zero off about the issues that everyone has talked about and they gave me roughly the same answer saying that "only a handful of boats out there are experiencing these problems" and that I would have to pay for the upgraded hardware, etc. There is no way I should have to pay extra for a fix on a brand new boat when it is obviously a problem with zero off and the speed control is not operating properly.

[NautiqueJeff]

This is not a true statement from Zero Off if they actually made it. The 220 and the 230 have just as much problem. It was a design problem with the antenna picking up the satellites at the same time trying to keep the boat at a constant speed with the right weight for the best wake. Funny that the new antenna and soft ware fixed the problem. Sounds like Zero Off needs to come to the table and pay for the up grade.

I never had any problems with my 2007 236 or my 2008 230 with ZO surging. The 2009 220 I used last summer didn't have the issue either. I did run into the issue in a friend's 2009 210 though.

[xrichard]

I think it's obvious this should be a warranty issue.

Just stupid.

From what I've heard, the initial units were fixed under warranty, but once it became obvious that CC/ZO would have to do a lot of units, CC decided to call it an "upgrade" and make the customer pay.

My guess is there's an issue between ZO and CC re: who pays. CC likely argued that the problem is resolved with a new antenna/software patch, so it's clearly a ZO issue. ZO likely argued that they haven't had this issue with any other boat manufacturer, to it's clearly a CC problem.

At the end of the day, it was determined the customer would pay.

All that aside, Eric at ZO has been incredibly easy to deal with. When my dealer was having difficulty figuring out the new wiring harness, I emailed Eric on a Saturday afternoon and he replied within 1/2 hour. In every other instance, he has been incredibly quick to respond to my questions. That is in huge contrast to CC...which hasn't yet responded (after a month) to my inquiry regarding this issue.

[robertsmcfarland]

Jeff, Not to be negative, but a boat is a boat , I have had all three , any one who weights any one the 210, 220, 230 with the old Zero Off has and will have a problem with porpoising ,Zero Off would not have come up with a replacement; they saw the hand writing on the wall. White Lake did an experience with a 2008 230 this fall at our request ,old set up {ZO], porpoised big time! , while still out on the water same weight set up, changed to the new antenna no porpoising at all. I agree if you don't put extra weight in, no or little problem, but weighted to maximum wake enhancement all models will porpoise. Some of the CC team rider put perfect pass back in their boats, pre 2009 , to solve the problem before the fix.

[NautiqueJeff]

I run about 1K over stock.

[robertsmcfarland]

Jeff , 1000 pounds and less might be the magic number that doesn't cause the porpoising , we run 2500 plus over factory.

[NautiqueJeff]

Jeff , 1000 pounds and less might be the magic number that doesn't cause the porpoising , we run 2500 plus over factory.

Yeah, I thought it might be related to very heavily-weighted boats. The 210 I was in was pretty heavily-weighted too, so maybe you're on to something there. My 1K of lead doesn't seem like so much anymore...

[isenbed]

My 210 surged pretty bad with the original setup. I only use 500 lbs ballast in addition to factory. It seemed to surge worse at higher speeds (above 24 mph). I got the antenna and new software, hopefully it is fixed. It's too bad Nautique is not correcting this problem for everyone. It was a fairly expensive option that was worthless as is came from the factory.

[xrichard]

My guess, based on playing with the new antenna/software set up in my boat, is it has less to do with how much weight you carry and more to do with how it is distributed. In my experience, rear-heavy set ups are more susceptible to porpoising.

I'm re-thinking whether this should be warranty or if it is legitimately an "upgrade." The other day with my standard set up (stock ballast plus approx 900-950 lbs additional with a rear-bias because I like a steeper wake), the ZO performed well (e.g. occasionally we'd begin what used to become porpoising, but the boat/ZO "self corrected" after +/-4 relatively small oscillations--I didn't have to intervene with the hydrogate).

After riding, we headed back to the dock and I'd forgotten to dump ballast. With ZO off, we start porpoising in a BIG way at about 27 mph. Lowering the hydrogate stopped it. I didn't have time to play around with it, so I just left the hydrogate down and drove straight to the dock while continuing to dump ballast.

I'm wondering if the reality is that ZO + the new antenna/software is doing a great job of correcting porpoising that would otherwise occur. And that ZO + the old antenna/software is simply doing its job but without correcting for porpoising that would otherwise occur. From ZO's standpoint, that's not a controller issue and not their problem.

From CC's standpoint, if the boats only porpoise with a rear-weight bias using aftermarket ballast, then it's not their problem, either.

[JWAT]

I still think this should be a warranty issue no doubt. Let me first say that I just bought a new 2008 SAN 210 and have not been able to use it yet, so I am going off of what others have said so far...

From what others have said, it seems the boat starts porpoising with nearly 1000 over stock of ballast...especially when it is rear weighted. So, you're telling me that I can't take out 6 of my other buddies and have them sit in the back of the boat with the ballast full while someone is riding because the boat will not perform correctly (6 x 175 lbs. = 1050 lbs.)??? Heck, the max capacity for this boat is 10 people, so I could technically have even more people weight in the boat than that if I wanted.

I agree that if everything worked correctly with factory settings, but only did this with additional weight above factory settings, then the buyer should probably be responsible for the "upgrade." But, the scenerio I gave above is completely within the "factory specs" as far as weight capacity goes, etc. and it would not perform correctly with surging, etc. That, in my opinion, should no doubt be covered under warranty, whether it is by Correct Craft or Zero Off.

I'm not the happiest buyer considering that I'm gonna have to make an initial ~$500 purchase for my brand new boat that was supposed to work correctly when I received it or at least have anything that didn't work correctly fixed under warranty. Just leaves a sour taste in your mouth that noone is stepping up to the plate on this...

[xrichard]

Good point re: passengers...on the other hand, that's weight closer to the middle of the boat. I have no idea if the porpoising issue rears its ugly head with a lot of extra weight in the cockpit, but I'm curious if those with stock ballast + weight in the cockpit get into a porpoising issue.

With the original antenna/software setup, I could reduce (but not eliminate) the porpoising issue by moving as little as 50 lbs of ballast from the rear of the cockpit to the bow. 100 lbs had a more noticeable effect, but still didn't eliminate the issue.

BTW, you can buy the antenna from ZO directly (or Whitelake) for $328. ZO will flash the software free of charge if you send them your head unit...or they can tell you how to do it with a Diacomm cable. Installation is simple and takes very little time. I had my dealer do it because they were already under the dash and replacing the ZO gauge because of delamination...otherwise, it's definitely a 30-60 min DIY task. That might take a little pain out of it.

At the end of the day, I think CC should have stepped up and taken care of this if for nothing but customer satisfaction on a premium priced product. Nevertheless, I'm having a tougher time arguing that it's a "no brainer" to cover it under warranty.

[SuperSquirt]

I'm confused what you guys are refering to as porpoising? Do you mean the surging that comes when ZO is on and you hit rollers and other wakes, or are you talking about standard everyday rear-heavy porpoising? Almost every boat will porpoise when you put too much weight in the back, and it happens to my 08 210 when I put to much back there, regardless if ZO is on or not. My problem with ZO is the surging you get when you hit other rollers and the speed doesn't account for it. I still haven't had mine updated, but I still think it should be fixed for free by someone.

[xrichard]

What I'm talking about is more closely described as "porpoising" than "surging." There's no real perception of increase / decrease in speed or rpm.

It doesn't happen just with rollers...(prior to the new antenna/software) I could be pulling a rider in completely flat water (or near-flat...no other boats out but perhaps a little wind ripple). Then, at some point, the bow would rise and then fall a tiny bit...followed by a larger oscillation...followed by a third and even larger oscillation...then another larger oscillation. At some point, the up/down motion wouldn't get larger, but it would continue until I lowered the hydrogate.

Though almost any boat will porpoise if you load up the rear end even in smooth water--and the newer 210 will certainly do that--what is going on here is frustrating because it doesn't happen consistently. I could ride all day in the same water and have 2-5 occasions of porpoising. It was probably triggered by something of which I was unaware (e.g. someone moving around in the boat, an aggressive pull by the wakeboarder, an aggressive correction by ZO, etc).

After the triggering event, perhaps ZO helped to create a feedback loop--I say that only because the new antenna/software seems to break whatever loop exists, though it could be that it's more than that and the new antenna/software actively counters the porpoising.

Having said that, I haven't ridden all day with stock ballast alone so I can't tell you how it behaves with that set up. And I load up additional ballast with a moderate rear-bias. While I haven't spent a lot of time testing when porpoising occurs (...remember, you can go quite a bit of time between events...and I don't have the time or interest when there is a $330 fix available...), my perception, based on only a few data points, is that porpoising is likely exacerbated by a rear-heavy bias. Which also makes intuitive sense.

It could be that the condition is really a function entirely of rear weight bias. If that is true, it makes the 210 hull the most sensitive, by far, of any boat I've owned.

[JWAT]

It's been described to me as a combination of both. From what I've heard, when the bow rises, Zero Off thinks the boat is slowing down so it surges to speed up and get the bow down. This in turn just causes it to keep bouncing our "porpoising" because the Zero Off keeps compensating too quickly when the bow rises and falls. The new antenna and software fixes this problem.

Now that I think about it...if the above is true, I wonder if just moving the original antenna from the bow to the stern of the boat would help this problem since the stern doesn't raise and lower like the bow????

[Latonkaboarder]

It's been described to me as a combination of both. From what I've heard, when the bow rises, Zero Off thinks the boat is slowing down so it surges to speed up and get the bow down. This in turn just causes it to keep bouncing our "porpoising" because the Zero Off keeps compensating too quickly when the bow rises and falls. The new antenna and software fixes this problem.

Now that I think about it...if the above is true, I wonder if just moving the original antenna from the bow to the stern of the boat would help this problem since the stern doesn't raise and lower like the bow????

That's a very good idea. Let us know if anyone tries it and if it works. I wonder if the antenna cord is long enough to move it to the rear of the boat.