Nautique Releases G23 Paragon

[vision]

I would be concerned that the telescopic tower is going to collect an amazing amount of dirt between it’s different segments. I realize they did it this way for looks, but if you inverted the telescopic action you would not end up with a tower full of dirt and debris.


Sent from my iPhone using PLANETNAUTIQUE mobile app

[zoltan mclovin]

I hope the paragon sales are excellent purely for a selfish reason. I would like to see more 2ish year old G23’s hit the market for my upgrade.

cobey

[nautiquegeek]

First off it is never possible to make everyone happy all the time on forums with a post. Some of the people some of the time, maybe. I never have and never will divulge information I may know that Nautique doesn't want shared publicly. I must be doing ok as I have not had a post deleted by Jeff as of yet

My conversation with Gregg isn't if a forced induction engine needs better fuel or not or if I think the P23 needs the XR7 or not, but that Nautique currently feels the XR7 is the best compliment to the new P23 due to many factors he is not considering.

I feel Gregg is confusing many factors and mainly to his argument that high altitude lakes are carrying higher octane fuel to compensate for all the supercharged boats running around. I urge him to head to Tahoe (probably the most famous high altitude boating lake in the world) and take a walk through some docks to truly see how many Sea Rays, Cobalts, Formulas and every brand of wake boat is truly supercharged (short list of all the popular brands in Tahoe). I know for a fact the percentage is very low. If any lakes were to supply higher octane at the pumps I would guess places with high ambient air temps would be behooved to do so. Hot air increases the tendency of an engine to develop knock, and higher compression ratios increase the air temperature. Unless the intake air is sufficiently cooled, boosted engines generate much more heat than naturally aspirated engines do, and are thus more subject to detonation. Again, high altitudes not only have cooler ambient temps but overall CRs are reduced due to elevation. At higher elevation pressures drop which means less temperature.

Let's clear some things up for those who may not quite understand FI (forced induction) applications:

The only reason a supercharged engine works better in altitude than an NA engine is the compressor can force more air and proportionately more fuel into the combustion chamber than atmospheric pressure alone. It has zero to do with anything else. In general, factory equipped vehicles/boats running forced induction applications run lower compression ratios but with numerically higher PSI induction numbers per the compressor. Of course in many racing applications racers will run the combination of high CR as well as a blower configuration. However, this will narrow the tuning window making their configuration very sensitive in terms of reliability.

Increasing compression ration increases the TDC temperature. This gives the fuel more time and temperature history which will make it very prone to knock/autoignite. So by lowering the CR you lower the TDC temperature and peak cylinder pressure a little and make it back up with more boost. This way gives more knock resistance with equal power and is the better way to go in boats used on a daily basis.


I hope every has an amazing week and puts lots of deposits down on new P23s and keep this economy going!

[doug69]

This is indeed an interesting case for a marketing class. I personably have trouble seeing the extra $100k value over the g23 and if you Have already gone through the trouble to redesign and source all the new components why not look for economy of scale. But I also have have trouble seeing where the extra $50k+ comes from in going from 230 to G23 unless you are a pro wakeboarder. My worry is nautique is testing the market and seeing just how much will people pay for these toys. If they get 500 people trying to order 50 paragons then they will know there is still room to go up. And the sad part is that pretty soon the only people you will see with the these lovely machines are the 18 year old sons of millionaires with their friends-which is already pretty prevalent with g23s.

One person compared this to a ford gt but failed to question why the paragon costs more than 4 brand new redesigned corvettes or top of the line loaded f150s. It’s not like these boats are rare collector cars sitting in garages. If these comPanies are happy selling high performance machines exclusively to the one percent who only want what others cant afford I guess that is their prerogative but it’s kinda sad.

In any case, I am obviously not the target market as am pretty satisfied with my old ****ty basic poor man’s 2016 230....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Evening Shade]

Gosh, golly, it so hard to know the truth when greg says they selling every last g23 boat, and then blueroom says there are new g boats sitting on dealer lots.

Thereby proving, no one - including myself - knows a **** thing...And if you think I am wrong, and you actually for sure know what you are talking about, then it's you that doesn't know a **** thing.

P.s. fun and lucky we are to able to spend time talking about boats, and give each other a hard time. ha.

Yes we are lucky to have such first world problems.

[RDT-G23]

There are plenty of lakes people use that do not allow houses and people tow to them. Then there are also people who use it at their lake house and local house and tow back and forth (some pretty far distances too.)

As mentioned in the megathread about towing a G23, you should not tow a G with a regular half ton pickup. You need a substantial machine to tow them and this paragon will be near 10,000 lbs on the trailer, getting to be a dangerous amount of weight to tow around if not done properly.

Either way, i hope they offer from the factory some sort of electric over hydraulic option for the brakes. I put one aftermarket on mine and it is awesome for towing. But most importantly its SAFE.

I couldn't agree with this sentiment more. People sure as heck should not be towing a boat like the G23 with a half ton, much less the P23. I'm sure many will chime in to state that they do, it is safe, and so on. I have an F250, and 2020 model on order; even with a truck like this-close attention not only to the GCVW is important, so are hitch and ball limits. There is no messing around when towing these weights. If I do in fact order the P23-I will overkill in every way possible on the trailer and related equipment.

[blueroom]

Someone close to me was a manager at a Nautique dealership until very recently, and has worked closely with people in the industry. That gave me a little more insight into some of this stuff. I saw a partial pic of the Paragon Nautique didn't mean to get into the frame of another boat last spring, and it has been talked about in hushed circles for some time.

scottb7 is right. The number of times people post plain wrong stuff on here that they know is fact, or their dealer told them in confidence, is funny. A lot of my own posts I have had to play dumb, and kind of trolled people a little. So there is my true confession.

Bottom line - your dealer is not going to give you secret information, and the better/bigger dealers know what is going on a long time before they admit it. It's a business, and your dealers alliance is with the manufacturer, not you. They deal with you a few times a year, they deal with Nautique daily. Sorry, but you aren't as important to your dealer as the manufacturer is - just saying.

That being said, there are a couple of guys on here that do seem to get some info a little ahead of time. Once they post it up, and it isn't deleted, that has always been my cue that I can share.

[scottb7]

Gosh, golly, it so hard to know the truth when greg says they selling every last g23 boat, and then blueroom says there are new g boats sitting on dealer lots.

Thereby proving, no one - including myself - knows a **** thing...And if you think I am wrong, and you actually for sure know what you are talking about, then it's you that doesn't know a **** thing.

P.s. fun and lucky we are to able to spend time talking about boats, and give each other a hard time. ha.

[Evening Shade]

I think the P23 is a glimpse of the next G series hull. When that change occurs the Paragon will become the top tier trim level of the G series, just as some have suggested it should be. The next G series may not have all the features of the P23 unless you step up to the P23 trim level, but I’m sure a lot of P23 features will trickle down to the G series.

Who knows, the P23 may end up being a short lived model just like the first Paragon, but I’m almost certain that it is the test bed for future G boats. If this is the plan, Nautique will be hush hush about it so they can sell the current G boats and P23.

So I think G buyers should be excited by the P23.

Just my thoughts, which are probably far from reality.

[jc]

Just going back to the pricing and questions of demand, heard from some who attended the Dealer meeting / release in Callaway that they have never seen anything like it, people were ordering the Paragon over the phone. Texting, emailing, putting deposits down just from the pictures on the internet. They will sell every one they can make.
And I think current G owners should be happy, this will only help increase used values and resale IMO.

[BoatGuy2019]

This has been very entertaining reading. I remember when a new Ski Nautique listed for $25,000 and I couldn’t understand how anyone could spend that kind of money on a boat, now they’re close to $125,000. I also remember thinking that I’d never spend more on a boat than I did on my first home - but I did. So now we’re entering new territory and apparently everyone here is worried about whether Nautique did their market research. I’m sure they have, let us not forget there are people buying $1,000,000 lake houses, tearing them down and building $2,000,000 lake houses.
The common complaints I see here are:
1) The G series of boats are getting old and need to be refreshed - legitimate complaint that hopefully the factory is already working on
2) The P23 is priced way to high for most of us to buy - so be it, if you can’t afford it don’t buy it. I don’t see everyone running to the Ferrari dealership and complaining that their new model is too pricey for most of us.
3) There seems to be some worry that Nautique has missed the mark - only time will determine this, but I’m sure they have a plan.
So my question is, why is everyone so worried about the P23? They’ve done a beautiful job of design and packaging, I think we should enjoy what they’ve done and thank Nautique for continuing to design innovative and good looking products - not every manufacturer does that. (Malibu still has the wedge and surfgate don’t they?)

A-freak’n man.


Sent from my iPhone using the force of my 2019 G23

[Kenv]

Am I the only G23 owner that doesn't feel "cheated"? Actually I feel like a I got a smoking deal on my boat compared to the P23. Does it have some nice features? Sure. Anything I can't live without? Nope!

In the end, the purpose of these boats is the same as the triple cheeseburger. Sell more doubles.

Yeah Doc....you're the only one. Just kidding ....but to clarify....I said I felt cheated only because I don't own a G23 yet....I'm in the market for one...but you already have one. And of course...that's just one person's opinion. I do like the new slang...."P23" though.

[Tallredrider]

How hard is it to carry a case of this around when you want to fill up?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C4IH8SM...i-a=B01C4IH8SM

The chart they provide states, approx 1/2 ounce per gallon to make 87 go to 93. Doesn't seem all that bad, when taking into account the 200K+ pricetag of the boat. I personally would not let the availability of 93 octane freak me out. My G had so much storage, I could find space for a case of this.

[blueroom]

Octane requirement is lower, regardless of what the little sticker says.

Octane requirements at altitude for normally aspirated engines is less, as it essentially creates lower compression ratios.

You use (and need) more octane in supercharged and turbo applications because the engines have a higher compression ratios, which is true at all altitudes.

However, as you indicated altitude does affect this some. For example, we run about 50% Av Gas in our boosted snowmobiles at 6000-8000 feet. Up around 10,000 feet we only need around 20% Av Gas, as even with the turbos compensating for altitude your compression ratios eventually go down and detonation is not as likely. However, it's not realistic to change your fuel mixture out based on the altitude and octane needed. Same goes on a boat.

With a supercharger you don't have boost control compensating for altitude, so your compression ratios (and altitude scrubbing power loss) are fairly linear - thus the comment on changing the gearing being accurate.

[blueroom]

Nautique is going to be fine with the Paragon. It's a cool boat and they will sell them in whatever limited number they build.

It's really is the dealers that will probably be hurt. For three reasons.

1) The bread and butter is the G series. I can't help but think that the Paragon is going to cannibalize the G reputation. People won't buy a Paragon, but it will keep them from buying a G once it isn't king any longer.

2) A lot like #1 above, there are an incredible number of people that go to a dealer and want to buy the "best" boat. They won't be able to get a Paragon, or even some of those will be priced out. I think this sends them to buy the best of another brand - and they will not get a G.

3) This last sales year was harder for a number of dealers. Boats did not move like they did the last couple of years, and there is still 2019 inventory sitting on lots - including G boats which has been unheard of. Seems like really bad timing, and something that will exasperate the situation. Throw in a possible recession and you have a recipe for some dealer hurt.