Paragon & G23 Trailer Discussion

[greggmck]

greggmck - you are right, it’s like 3” from the stop. The ramp is so steep at Adirondack Marine that you can’t pull it all the way up. You gotta draw it in the rest of the way at the top of the hill. That doesn’t change the fact that the axles are placed at least a foot ahead of where they were on your tandem.....

digging myself a hole?
1- I’m not the one complaining about sway characteristics on a tandem, you are. My tandems all towed fine. That was the point of my original post.
2- in my experience, my triple axle G23 trailer squatted the raptor every bit as much if I had the ball height correct for the trailer. If I had the ball lower than it should be, yes it would reduce the weight because of resting more weight on the front axle..... however, that warmed my front axle tires beyond my comfort level.
3- weigh safe hitches are kinda accurate.
4- Regardless of all of this, I am going to take the word of an engineer at boatmate, and the owner of a boat trailer manufacturing company, over some keyboard warrior on PN.
5- Still waiting for a vid of you lifting the 100lb tongue on your triple axle trailer......

1) I never complained about sway. I never experienced it. We were discussing tongue weight.
Your words. "tongue weight would be 8-10% Regardless of how many axles." This is clearly NOT the case. FACT: Adding an additional forward axle reduces tongue weight because that forward axle supports weight that would otherwise be on the tongue.

2) Please show side by side pictures of the same squat with triple and tandem axles on a Raptor. I have posted these photos and this was NOT my experience. How could it be? With a properly loaded trailer (level) the front most axle on a triple axle trailer will carry some weight that would otherwise be on the tongue of a tandem. See #1. Less tongue weight, less squat.

3) As an engineer I am very focused on data and accuracy. I placed two 50 lb lead weight bags on my weight safe hitch to calibrate it and it increased 100 lbs. It may not be highly accurate but it is clearly close enough.

4). That is your choice. But this keyboard warrior is an engineer that designed a Super Computer for NASA. Clearly trailer weight dynamics are beyond my skill level and should be deferred to someone answering the phone at Boatmate.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/23/ibm_idataplex/
https://www.eweek.com/networking/nas...-supercomputer

5) As I mentioned I no longer own any trailer. Which is why of course you are asking for this video. If I did I would be glad to post this video so that you could shift the conversation to something else...

This is becoming a Monty Python buy an Argument... https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=570647616436432

[RDT-G23]

Back to topic... The Paragon is as heavy as one will find with these types of boats, thus I ordered a triple axle Boatmate with brakes on all axles and a 2 5/16” coupler; I will tow with an F250. I’m in good shape.

[Wayward]

I don't think anyone mentioned the tires. It is pretty hard to find a tire of the size used on these trailers that has more than a 2200 pound capacity. Putting 10K on 4 tires is going to be overloaded on the tires, in most instances.

Please show me the tires on a 15K boat on a tandem trailer. Wouldn't they have to be 35 inch semi truck tires to manage that sort of weight?

That’s always the weak spot on these trailers. What is up with that? They always put tires on that are running the max of their capacity right out of the gate. It’s no secret that trailer tires shredding is the #1 most common issue with these trailers. So much that you always want to have a lug wrench with you for long trips.

although, I can say that I haven’t had tire issues in quite a few years. They are getting better (at least on boatmate trailers)

[Wayward]

greggmck - you are right, it’s like 3” from the stop. The ramp is so steep at Adirondack Marine that you can’t pull it all the way up. You gotta draw it in the rest of the way at the top of the hill. That doesn’t change the fact that the axles are placed at least a foot ahead of where they were on your tandem.....

digging myself a hole?
1- I’m not the one complaining about sway characteristics on a tandem, you are. My tandems all towed fine. That was the point of my original post.
2- in my experience, my triple axle G23 trailer squatted the raptor every bit as much if I had the ball height correct for the trailer. If I had the ball lower than it should be, yes it would reduce the weight because of resting more weight on the front axle..... however, that warmed my front axle tires beyond my comfort level.
3- weigh safe hitches are kinda accurate.
4- Regardless of all of this, I am going to take the word of an engineer at boatmate, and the owner of a boat trailer manufacturing company, over some keyboard warrior on PN.
5- Still waiting for a vid of you lifting the 100lb tongue on your triple axle trailer......

6- Literally, just google it please. There is a zillion articles on this topic, and EVERY SINGLE one of them points out the fact that you should have 10% tongue weight regardless of the trailer being a single, tandem, triple, quad axle, etc....

[NautiqueJeff]

It looks like the Goodyear Marathon ST225/75R15 has capacity. That's what Ram-Lin put on their dual-axle trailers. Not sure about their (or Boatmate's, or EZ Loader's) triples.

Goodyear Marathon ST225/75R15 Load Range D - Capacity (Each Tire): 2,540 lbs. at 65 PSI

Actually, now that I think about it, even that may be pushing it on a 10,000+ load. Nobody wants to be right at the max.

[Tallredrider]

I don't think anyone mentioned the tires. It is pretty hard to find a tire of the size used on these trailers that has more than a 2200 pound capacity. Putting 10K on 4 tires is going to be overloaded on the tires, in most instances.

Please show me the tires on a 15K boat on a tandem trailer. Wouldn't they have to be 35 inch semi truck tires to manage that sort of weight?

[greggmck]

Is your triple axle trailer a boatmate? I can see why you wouldn’t like the setup on your tandem..... the axles are too far back. I can also see why that would make a difference in how much your truck squats. Although you said it was minimal, it sure looks like it is squatting it quite a bit in that triaxle picture.....

here is a G23 on a boatmate with proper axle placement. See how the axles are further forward, and places your center of mass at the center of the axles? The center of the axle group on my tandem trailer is in the EXACT same location as the center of your triaxle group. At proper hitch height (16”), that will place the same tongue weight on the truck. The only difference will be- if you are towing with your hitch height too low, you will have less tongue weight, and if you are towing with the hitch too high, you will have more tongue weight.

it is pretty clear that most of your problem was incorrect axle placement on your tandem axle......

You really like to dig yourself a hole. There was no problem with my tandem trailer axle placement. I measured the tongue weight, it was shown in post above. For an 8,000 lb load the tongue weight was 675 lbs. This is 8% of the load on the tongue. Well within the limits EVEN YOU RECOMMEND.

Moving tandem axles forward on the trailer will REDUCE tongue weight. It is possible your tongue weigh will be lower than the 7-10% safe limit for a single or tandem (close axle) design. BUT this also places more weight BEHIND the rear most axle, increasing the likelihood for sway. Furthermore it looks like your boat is improperly loaded, not even sitting against the stop. This further introduces the possibility for sway.

[Wayward]

Here are two pictures of a G23 sitting on tandem and triple-axle trailers. With the tandem trailer the mass of the front of the boat weighs down on the tongue. This is indicated by the long red arrow. The tandem trailer is designed so that when the boat is loaded to the stops there is sufficient tongue weight to eliminate sway by keeping the center of mass in front of the rear most axle.


The picture of the triple-axle trailer shows the front most axle is much further forward on the boat. This third axle DOES SUPPORT additional weight of the boat, weight that is NOT supported in the tandem-axle design. The weight supported by the third axle is no longer placed on the tongue. It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE for the triple-axle trailer to have the same tongue weight as the tandem-axle design. Or are you saying the front axle is floating in the air and not supporting any weight???

I no longer own any trailer and keep my boat on a covered lift at the marina. And I do have a Raptor. As you know it has a soft suspension and when I was towing with the triple-axle trailer there was no substantial squat on the Raptor. This was shown in the prior post. The Raptor towed the triple-axle much more comfortably than the dual-axle. If you were told differently by the trailer manufacture you spoke to someone that is not an engineer and clearly does not understands basic physics.

Anyone that has a triple-axle trailer with the boat properly loaded on level ground can crank down the front jack and rotate it up. The trailer tongue will hang in mid air because the third axle is supporting the front of the boat and the tongue CANNOT hit the ground. With the tandem-axle trailer the tongue will fall to the ground.

So tongue weight is much lower when using a triple-axle trailer which has a front axle supporting additional weight of the boat that is no longer placed on the tongue.

Is your triple axle trailer a boatmate? I can see why you wouldn’t like the setup on your tandem..... the axles are too far back. I can also see why that would make a difference in how much your truck squats. Although you said it was minimal, it sure looks like it is squatting it quite a bit in that triaxle picture.....

here is a G23 on a boatmate with proper axle placement. See how the axles are further forward, and places your center of mass at the center of the axles? The center of the axle group on my tandem trailer is in the EXACT same location as the center of your triaxle group. At proper hitch height (16”), that will place the same tongue weight on the truck. The only difference will be- if you are towing with your hitch height too low, you will have less tongue weight, and if you are towing with the hitch too high, you will have more tongue weight.

it is pretty clear that most of your problem was incorrect axle placement on your tandem axle......

[greggmck]

greggmck I'm a bit surprised you'd suggest that a pup trailer setup is even remotely close to the same thing....
That example has plenty of trailer tongue weight. Its all sitting on the 5th wheel on the front. If you are talking about the dolly, then you don't have enough understanding of how that setup works...…..

Also, if you don't think that setup sways much, you obviously have never driven one.

I am not surprised top hear you say you weighed the tongues on all of your trailers...... I'm just surprised that you didn't claim to have weighed them in a controlled environment with postal scale accuracy.

On your triple axle tongue weight claim........ I will await your video that shows you easily lifting the tongue of your trailer with the boat on there. That is certainly not my experience, it is certainly not what boatmate told me when I ordered my triple (I told them I was ordering a triple because I had a raptor and wanted to reduce tongue weight, and they told me that was a waste, as it would be the same). I also just called Performance Custom Trailers and asked the owner (Local Boat trailer manufacturer that I know), and without hesitation he said tongue weight would be 8-10% Regardless of how many axles. His other comment was "You could have 16 axles on that trailer, and it would sway like crazy with a 10,000lb boat and only 100lbs on the tongue.

Here are two pictures of a G23 sitting on tandem and triple-axle trailers. With the tandem trailer the mass of the front of the boat weighs down on the tongue. This is indicated by the long red arrow. The tandem trailer is designed so that when the boat is loaded to the stops there is sufficient tongue weight to eliminate sway by keeping the center of mass in front of the rear most axle.


The picture of the triple-axle trailer shows the front most axle is much further forward on the boat. This third axle DOES SUPPORT additional weight of the boat, weight that is NOT supported in the tandem-axle design. The weight supported by the third axle is no longer placed on the tongue. It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE for the triple-axle trailer to have the same tongue weight as the tandem-axle design. Or are you saying the front axle is floating in the air and not supporting any weight???

I no longer own any trailer and keep my boat on a covered lift at the marina. And I do have a Raptor. As you know it has a soft suspension and when I was towing with the triple-axle trailer there was no substantial squat on the Raptor. This was shown in the prior post. The Raptor towed the triple-axle much more comfortably than the dual-axle. If you were told differently by the trailer manufacture you spoke to someone that is not an engineer and clearly does not understands basic physics.

Anyone that has a triple-axle trailer with the boat properly loaded on level ground can crank down the front jack and rotate it up. The trailer tongue will hang in mid air because the third axle is supporting the front of the boat and the tongue CANNOT hit the ground. With the tandem-axle trailer the tongue will fall to the ground.

So tongue weight is much lower when using a triple-axle trailer which has a front axle supporting additional weight of the boat that is no longer placed on the tongue.

[RDT-G23]

greggmck-

I went back and found a post by you on the topic. (I remembered you showed this) I didn't find this big a disparity when I did both tandem and triple; regardless- you did. Here it is...

One aspect of towing I don’t see discussed here is the difference between a dual-axle and a triple-axel trailer on towing safety. I just upgraded my boat from a 2016 G23 to a 2018 G23. For the 2018 I ordered the 10,000lb triple-axel trailer with electric brakes. One thing I did not consider was the difference in tongue weight between these two configurations, which changes my entire perspective on WDH and air bags. I currently only tow about 5 miles to the boat ramp once and 25 miles to the dealer once per year, (we keep our boat on a covered lift 12 month per year) so I had no long distance towing needs. But my wife suggested it would be nice to take our boat on a family trip so I decided to look into how to increase my safety towing near the limit of my vehicle.

I have a 2017 Ford Raptor rated to tow 8,000lbs. With the boat cleaned out of all gear and full fuel I weighed the boat and trailer and it came in at 8,050lbs. Legal with less than full fuel but not much margin. However, the Raptor has ample engine power, transmission gearing, and wheel base to tow much greater weight. Its limiting design element is its long-travel suspension. The suspension travel is why it is limited to 5,000lb towing capacity without a WDH and 8,000lb with a WDH hitch. But here is the thing I learned:

My 2016 G23 completely empty with full fuel has a tongue weight of about 675 lbs with a dual-axel trailer. The 2018 G23 on the triple-axel trailer has a tongue weight of 150lbs! A WDH will do nothing and is not even needed with a triple-axel trailer because the three axels bear most of the load leaving little weight on the tongue. Towing with the triple-axel with electric brakes is a dream. The truck has NO sag, and stops and handles like the G23 is not even back there.

Now that I know this, I would never consider airbags and/or a WDH because I would rather invest in a safer trailer which eliminates the heavy tongue weight completely.

2016 G23 Dual Axle Trailer - 675lbs Tongue Weight 3+ inches of rear sag.


2018 G23 on 10,000lb Triple-Axle trailer with electric brakes. 150lb tongue weight, no rear sag.

[Wayward]

greggmck I'm a bit surprised you'd suggest that a pup trailer setup is even remotely close to the same thing....
That example has plenty of trailer tongue weight. Its all sitting on the 5th wheel on the front. If you are talking about the dolly, then you don't have enough understanding of how that setup works...…..

Also, if you don't think that setup sways much, you obviously have never driven one.

I am not surprised top hear you say you weighed the tongues on all of your trailers...... I'm just surprised that you didn't claim to have weighed them in a controlled environment with postal scale accuracy.

On your triple axle tongue weight claim........ I will await your video that shows you easily lifting the tongue of your trailer with the boat on there. That is certainly not my experience, it is certainly not what boatmate told me when I ordered my triple (I told them I was ordering a triple because I had a raptor and wanted to reduce tongue weight, and they told me that was a waste, as it would be the same). I also just called Performance Custom Trailers and asked the owner (Local Boat trailer manufacturer that I know), and without hesitation he said tongue weight would be 8-10% Regardless of how many axles. His other comment was "You could have 16 axles on that trailer, and it would sway like crazy with a 10,000lb boat and only 100lbs on the tongue.

[greggmck]

Triple axle trailer looks cool, but that is the extent of it's advantages for a boat under 10K pounds. I'm surprised so many run triples for boats that are this light. Although, I have to admit that I ordered with a triple once, just to see if it towed better...… it wasn't any different.

The triple axle trailer does more than look cool. Sway occurs because the center of mass of the load is on or behind the rear most axle. This causes lateral instability of the trailer which can wag or induce sway on the tow vehicle. The common rule of thumb for 7-10% tongue weight is derived from single and dual-axle trailers where the axles are close together. When these trailers are improperly loaded it is possible to have the center of mass on or rear of the axles which causes sway.

Triple-axle trailers and even some dual-axle trailers support the center of mass between the axles making sway nearly impossible regardless of tongue weight. This is the same physics that allow dual-trailer configurations to have virtually zero tongue weight. See image below. There is nearly ZERO tongue weight on the trailer being towed because the center of mass of the trailer sits between the axles.



I have owned both dual and triple-axle trailers and I have measured the tongue weight of both using the weight safe hitch. The G23 sitting on a properly loaded dual-axle trailer applies about 700 lbs of tongue weight to the tow vehicle. This introduces the need for a weight distribution hitch for many vehicles because most are capable of only about 500 lbs of tongue load.

The triple-axle trailer introduces about 100 to 200 lbs of tongue load which is MUCH safer when towing because the tow vehicle weight is properly balanced on front and rear axles and a weight distribution hitch is not required nor would it do any good.

[Wayward]

The weight of the Paragon (dry) is 7,400 pounds. Add in fuel and gear, plus the weight of the trailer itself (likely close to 2,000 pounds), and you're certainly over 10,000 pounds. The limiting factor is likely the axle capacity (see this thread), so I think using a dual-axle trailer for a Paragon (unless it is empty) may not be as safe as using a triple.

There are 20k pound boats running around on tandem trailers...… There are zillions of every day trailers carrying boats, cars, dirt, horses, cattle, whatever, on two axles, and carrying loads three times heavier than a G23 Paragon. A third axle isn't even close to being needed on a trailer only carrying 10,000 lbs.

It has the one purpose.....it looks cool.

RDT-G23 -

If that was the case, Boatmate set up the trailer incorrectly. If the weight distribution is done correctly, you should be 10% on your hitch with either axle arrangement. I can't say if they did that correctly on your trailers or not. All I can say, is that if you call any boat trailer company and ask them what they will shoot for on tongue weight on a tandem or triple axle, with the same boat on it...….The target tongue weight will be identical.

[RDT-G23]

The weight of the Paragon (dry) is 7,400 pounds. Add in fuel and gear, plus the weight of the trailer itself, and you're certainly over 10,000 pounds. The limiting factor is likely the axle capacity (see this thread), so I think using a dual-axle trailer for a Paragon (unless it is empty) may not be as safe as using a triple.

I agree with this, and thus ordered a triple.

[NautiqueJeff]

Triple axle trailer looks cool, but that is the extent of it's advantages for a boat under 10K pounds. I'm surprised so many run triples for boats that are this light. Although, I have to admit that I ordered with a triple once, just to see if it towed better...… it wasn't any different.

The weight of the Paragon (dry) is 7,400 pounds. Add in fuel and gear, plus the weight of the trailer itself (likely close to 2,000 pounds), and you're certainly over 10,000 pounds. The limiting factor is likely the axle capacity (see this thread), so I think using a dual-axle trailer for a Paragon (unless it is empty) may not be as safe as using a triple.