2013 SANTE 230 - Adding JL 13W7s

[Ponger]

First off, there are alot of great guys on this forum and I appreciate the information and opinions shared.

What I would like to do is add two JL 13W7 subs that I have sitting around to my boat. My plan is to built a box for each sub that sit on either side of the engine, in the back or the storage spaces.
I was wondering if anyone had any thoughs or ideas for this install. My biggest concern would be the subs shaking the engine deck to death, even with the hatches open (Its a boat. They are called hatches right?).
I dont want to mount the subs under the glove box because thats where we store the boards when going down the road.
Should I run a ported box or should I go with a sealed box since the subs are not marine (They are six years old, If they make it a season or two and get damaged, I dont care)?

I plan to swap out the head unit to an alpine deck and add the WetSounds WS-420BT as I am really disappointed with the Clarion unit.

All thoughts are appreciated and I welcome any ideas.

[David Analog]

First, I wouldn’t be concerned about the marine issue unless there was a lot of direct exposure to water & UV, if it has a paper cone, or if you were in a coastal or highly brackish area. Nautique uses some non-marine coaxial speakers even though they are ‘marine certified’, which is a bogus rating.

The locations described will be fine when at rest and with the hatches open. But when underway the acoustic losses will be enormous and the sound quality will be terrible. Poor tonal construction, poor transients and attack, awful integration with the fullrange speakers, detached and remote sounding, but you will have the tactile bass survive and you will have a major boat shaker.

[Ponger]

I dont really plan on running the subs much when under way. Maybe when wake surfing at 10 mph, but not when cruising or boarding.
I also dont think that moisture should be an issue. The cones are not sensitive to water and the subs will be out of the sun virtually all of the time.
I wish there was some way to mount the subs in the rear storage and run ports into the main area of the boat, but due to the deck lid needing to open and close, I dont know how that would really be possible without getting into some serious (read costly) fabrication.
I appreciate the input David.

[David Analog]

Everything about the rear bulkhead and deck hatches are constructed to attenuate engine noise and of course there is no escaping the fact that it will have the same affect on the subwoofers. An open vent other than opening the hatches is really not possible from that location(s). The introduction of a lengthy port, by nature is a very resistive path, and would more freely pass a certain narrow frequency bandwidth while impeding most of the bandwidth. The phase delay would be brutal. Even with the hatches up, the bass energy emanating from the compartments is high and well above the sole of the boat and out of the cockpit bathtub so to speak. So that energy really flash evaporates and dissipates in a 180 degree sphere without any help from confining or reinforcing boundaries. It is just an acoustic challenge for the amplifiers and subs that have to work so much harder as compared to the typical direct-radiating sub mounted low and in a corner of the cockpit, not to mention the extra workload on the battery reserves. You can’t do any better than what the boat gives you and in some cases it’s not that good.

[Ponger]

Once again David, I appreciate the input. You appear to be very knowlegable on the topic.

I wish there was some other place on the boat that would allow for install (I really dont want to lose the under glove box storage).

Does anyone know where I can purchase HDPE sheeting locally? I am in the Tulsa area. I dont imagine Lowes keeps that kind of material on the shelf.

Has anyone built a sub box(s) for the rear compartment of their boat? I would love to see a picture if you have one available.

[nyryan2001]

Ponger, i love the idea of 13w7s.

i don't think it's a good ideal to put them in the back like that. One well executed 13w7 venting close or near the cockpit will sound clearer and sound stronger. Open hatches to get clear bass? No thanks. That's are super expensive to waste in an setup like that.

natiques are difficult due to no sub space at the driver's feet. But lots of guys have overcome that by doing slick installs on the starboard side compartment and some slick venting. It can be done and it can be done right with terrific results.

[Ponger]

Ryan,

That argument is valid. One sub venting under the windshield would easily out perform two in the back of the boat. My only hesitation is losing that great piece of storage. I also hate the thought of cutting on the boat.

As far as cost, the subs are sitting in the shop (they have sat for several years). They are 100% wasted right now. Even installed in that back of the boat, I am getting more use out of them.

You have me reconsidering though. I will have to do some measuring and decide if I am willing to give up the storage.

Thank you for the input.

[nyryan2001]

Ponger, have you seen some recent examples how folks have vented subs out of the observer's compartment?

There are some neat ways to do it, that really look OEM. Mine is a clear acryilc G23 decal vent, approx 14" x 10" or so, really looks like it came that way from the factory.I would estimate sounds about 75% as good as it does when the hatch is wide open.

Also, as far as space, doing an aerotube or a slot ported design on the right sub, you can really get pretty small and still get reasonably flat specs from the sub and box. 13w7s are awesome, I would love to upgrade my 12" to one.

take a few pics of your starboard compartment and post them up

[Ponger]

Ryan,

I am out of town for another week and dont have access to the boat to take any pictures but I would love to see a couple pictures of your setup.

Some people have a gift when I comes to figuring out ways to install stereo. I am not that guy, but I will shamelessly copy good ideas.

Thanks.

[flaudia402]

First off, there are alot of great guys on this forum and I appreciate the information and opinions shared.

What I would like to do is add two JL 13W7 subs that I have sitting around to my boat. My plan is to built a box for each sub that sit on either side of the engine, in the back or the storage spaces.
I was wondering if anyone had any thoughs or ideas for this install. My biggest concern would be the subs shaking the engine deck to death, even with the hatches open (Its a boat. They are called hatches right?).
I dont want to mount the subs under the glove box because thats where we store the boards when going down the road.
Should I run a ported box or should I go with a sealed box since the subs are not marine (They are six years old, If they make it a season or two and get damaged, I dont care)?

I plan to swap out the head unit to an alpine deck and add the WetSounds WS-420BT as I am really disappointed with the Clarion unit.

All thoughts are appreciated and I welcome any ideas.

While that's good that you have these laying around for usage - I'd be more inclined to sell them and get money for proper subs. The JL W6 and W7 subs are horribly inefficient and power hungry. I've got one 12 W7 in my boat in a ported box and while it sounds amazing, I wouldn't do it again. I initially had a 750.1 powering the one subwoofer and it still wasn't enough for it and had to move up to a 1000 watt. I also have 4 batteries to make up for the extra load. I wouldn't think to put two of these beasts in my boat without considering the extras you'd have to put in.

The main thing achilles heel on these subs is the horrible foam surround they use. They deteriorate over time and this process will unfortunately be sped up in your boat - regardless of the climate. The humidity and moisture in the air will eventually cause failure and you'll be forced to pull them out and replace that surround. While it's not a difficult and exorbitantly expensive process - its something to consider. I'm dealing with that right now, and likely will not be putting my 12 W7 back into my boat for this very reason.

[David Analog]

Quote: "The JL W6 and W7 subs are horriblyinefficient and power hungry."
This statement indicates a very limited knowledge of audio and speakers.

Quote: "The main thing achilles heel on these subs isthe horrible foam surround they use. They deteriorate over time and thisprocess will unfortunately be sped up in your boat - regardless of the climate."
The W6 v3 uses a rubber surround. Rubber has shortcomings too. All surrounds eventually age. There are countless other factors that can accelerate surround failure. Bad enclosure. Bad tuning. Fuel vapor. Abuse.

[flaudia402]

Quote: "The JL W6 and W7 subs are horriblyinefficient and power hungry."
This statement indicates a very limited knowledge of audio and speakers.

Quote: "The main thing achilles heel on these subs isthe horrible foam surround they use. They deteriorate over time and thisprocess will unfortunately be sped up in your boat - regardless of the climate."
The W6 v3 uses a rubber surround. Rubber has shortcomings too. All surrounds eventually age. There are countless other factors that can accelerate surround failure. Bad enclosure. Bad tuning. Fuel vapor. Abuse.

Thanks for the comment, and while I don't need to list any credentials for you - I will say my opinion is not of one, but many. David from Earmark has stated this before as well here - search if you'd like. This hasn't just been my experience, but people over at DIYAudio, Caraudio, and The 12 Volt forums.

Sure rubber has it's shortcomings, but all marine grade speakers/subwoofers have rubber butyl surrounds. None of my NVS Speakers or Polk Marine speakers have had this issue. This had nothing to do with the install, but everything to do with the equipment and it's environment. The simple fact that this also has happened in peoples car's is enough to warrant writing off JL for marine audio usage.

I'm not in anyway discounting JL Audio or their products. I think they produce great stuff and have a great reputation (albeit at a high cost), but their car audio line is simply not a good product for marine environments. My environment was a freshwater lake. My boat is a 2006, with 120 hours. The subwoofer though 6 years old, has less than 30 hours of playing time on it. The equipment was all kept completely enclosed away from water and direct sunlight. The only thing that damaged this subwoofer was the humidity in the Florida air. Every other audio piece of equipment in the boat is still going strong though.

While OP already owns these subwoofers and isn't building a system around them, if he was considering spending the money to purchase them new to install - I would highly advise him to look elsewhere.

[flaudia402]

Thanks for the comment, and while I don't need to list any credentials for you - I will say my opinion is not of one, but many. David from Earmark has stated this before as well here - search if you'd like. This hasn't just been my experience, but people over at DIYAudio, Caraudio, and The 12 Volt forums.

Sure rubber has it's shortcomings, but all marine grade speakers/subwoofers have rubber butyl surrounds. None of my NVS Speakers or Polk Marine speakers have had this issue. This had nothing to do with the install, but everything to do with the equipment and it's environment. The simple fact that this also has happened in peoples car's is enough to warrant writing off JL for marine audio usage.

I'm not in anyway discounting JL Audio or their products. I think they produce great stuff and have a great reputation (albeit at a high cost), but their car audio line is simply not a good product for marine environments. My environment was a freshwater lake. My boat is a 2006, with 120 hours. The subwoofer though 6 years old, has less than 30 hours of playing time on it. The equipment was all kept completely enclosed away from water and direct sunlight. The only thing that damaged this subwoofer was the humidity in the Florida air. Every other audio piece of equipment in the boat is still going strong though.

While OP already owns these subwoofers and isn't building a system around them, if he was considering spending the money to purchase them new to install - I would highly advise him to look elsewhere.

So in replying to my other thread, I noticed that you ARE David of Earmark. My apologies - I don't frequent this forum nearly as much as I did back in '08. So as far as my comment though - it still stands. This is something I directly remember you saying back when I was shopping for battery upgrade's and a new amp with more power. You advised me to either install the sub in a ported enclosure, or else selling it for something more efficient.

In fact, my system was a direct emulation of the black '06 SAN 220 that you guys did back in '07 or '08 with the Wetsounds, Blue LED's, Boston Acoustics Amps and the JL 12 W7. That boat is up on Wetsounds website - I saw it earlier today. I actually mirrored my set up almost identically, but went with NVS Towers, and Kicker Amps. I even purchased my Wetsounds WS420 from you and you gave me technical advice via e-mail for some feedback I was getting through my speakers.

Glad to see you still around though.

[David Analog]

Flaudia,

Here is what you need to understand about woofer efficiency.
A longer excursion woofer is ultimately going to have more output. That requires a major premium in amplifier power, unlike more surface area. A longer excursion woofer is going to be less sensitive and require more power to obtain its full benefit. It will have a longer voice coil, and heavier parts that must be more rigid to stand up to the stresses. All these things impact the woofer’s internal efficiency. However, you can have a woofer that is far less sensitive at 1 watt at 100 Hz but is far more efficient at 100 watts at 40 Hz. Bottom line is that it is a waste to use this type of woofer unless you power the woofer to its potential. And many don’t. Or they don’t have the voltage/current delivery system to back up the amplifier power. So you have to take these comments in context. The statements I am making about woofer design are a matter of physics which no woofer manufacturer can defy.

[Ponger]

Again, thanks for all the help.
I bit the bullet. Dropped the boat off at Boomers Audio in Tulsa. They sat on the boat most of the winter and parted me with a pile of money.... But.. Wow. Three Wetsounds amps are pushing a pair of 13W7's, four Rev 10's in the tower, and 6.5" Wetsounds speakers in the boat. It cranks. They installed an Alpine head unit and a dash mounted WS-420BT. Very pleased with the work.