2018 to 2020 G23 - expected cost to switch?

[greggmck]

The numbers you guy's are posting are crazy to me? 200.00 an hour , 20-30k hit in one year , 30 year financing? It looks to me like a G is a bad investment and trying to flip it every year or two is just throwing money away. It would be much cheaper to join the Care Free Boat Club and get new boats to use mo maintenance , Storage or cleaning 4-6 k a year. The way I see it is the surf craze is starting to fade buying a one trick pony surf specific boat is like buying a conversion van at the end of the 90's. 150k plus to surf did I wake up in bizarro world ? I bought a 08 210 new and have been surfing for 10 years now if I sold it today it would loose less than a G will in the first year. You don't want to buy the last conversion van made just before the market crashes.

There are different points of view. Yours makes sense. But for me the perspective is different.

I worked 50-60 hour weeks for decades as a technology executive and retired early. I have two teenagers and I wanted to share something with them that was special for me when I was growing up. During my 20s I lived in Florida and trained daily to compete at the world level in Slalom. During the decade I was competing I learned focus, self-control and determination that served me well in my professional career. I wanted to give this experience to my kids. Once I was very comfortably financially I quit work. My wife and I bought a G23 to surf with our kids before they no longer wanted to hang out with their boring parents. From an early age we taught them to drive a boat and all the responsibilities that go along with being safe on the water. As a family we fell in love with spending four to six hours, five days a week training together and then travelling to competitions. Along the way we won two world wake surf championships. Me, my son and daughter are all ranked in the top five in the world for our respective divisions. My 14 year old daughter can drive a G23 with precision. She can give me and my son pro quality pulls with 30 second pickups so we can maximize our practice time. This experience has provided both my 17 year-old son and 14 year-old daughter the chance to develop more self confidence and dutifulness than most of their peers. I am confident this will be an experience they cherish and remember for their entire lives.

My stock and bond "investments" will support me and my family for many decades, but the G23s have been the best investments I have ever made...

[Nautiquehunter]

You are truly the exception to the rule. With those credentials you are probably getting a promo boat if not you should be. If you can afford a 20-40k a year toy god bless you. Most are not in your class. I am no way as well off as you but we probably have just as much fun. Are you still slalom skiing? If so if you are ever near Lake Lanier GA look me up there are a group of hard core skiers you can meet.

[mooneywa]

greggmck - this is way off topic but would you share either here, PM, or through a new topic what makes a precision driver/pro quality pulls and techniques for rapid pickups? I thought I had things locked down pretty well, but 50 hrs/season vs 50hrs in two weeks is a different level and perhaps we could all use some tips to add to add to our driving repertoire.

[greggmck]

greggmck - this is way off topic but would you share either here, PM, or through a new topic what makes a precision driver/pro quality pulls and techniques for rapid pickups? I thought I had things locked down pretty well, but 50 hrs/season vs 50hrs in two weeks is a different level and perhaps we could all use some tips to add to add to our driving repertoire.

I put together a document for new drivers. Here is the relevant text.

Prop torque causes the boat to pull to the Starboard side, so it is important to drive properly and straight when pulling a surfer. This pull is worse when pulling a regular side rider than a goofy side rider because when surfing goofy the surf system yaws the boat in the opposite direction to mostly offset prop torque.
Fast pickups (about 30 seconds) maximize surf time and reduce time sitting in cold water. Steps for a good pull and pickup:

1. The engine has a 2:1 transmission so you have LOTS of torque to pull people out. Pull your surfer up by moving the throttle slowly but constantly. NEVER stop moving the throttle. Smooth, continuous throttle movement is important especially when pulling beginners. You should never hear the engine growl, just a smooth and continuous increase in revs. If the engine growls you pulled your rider too hard. The surf auto speed control will take over once you reach the set speed so don’t worry about going too fast.
2. As mentioned above when surfing the boat will pull to the Starboard side so you must maintain a good hold and apply continuous correction to the steering wheel to hold a straight line. Good surfers can tell when the boat is drifting. Spot a tree or landmark in the distance and keep an area on the bow pointed at that landmark.
3. Once the surfer falls pull the throttle back quickly but smoothly to neutral, once the throttle is in neutral immediately turn the steering wheel all the way to the non-surf side. This will cause the boat to slow quickly and pivot without sending a roller down course.
4. Now wait until the first non-surf side wave roller comes past your bow then use low/moderate throttle to drive back to the surfer staying just inside of your non-surf side rollers. Don’t go into the rollers as this will almost always send water over the bow, especially if you weighted the bow or are pulling a goofy side surfer. Reduce your throttle use as you approach the rider. The closer you get the less throttle you use. Never approach the rider with any substantial speed, just a drift.
   
   
5. During your pickup you drive a mini racetrack pattern, always pick up your rider on the surf side. You don’t want to drive past your rider before you turn back to them because this extends the racetrack and takes longer. But an extended racetrack is appropriate for learning the pattern. The ideal pickup is when the boat is turned so that only the back ¼ to ½ of the boat slides STRAIGHT past the rider about 5-8 feet away with the boat heading STRAIGHT back in the identical direction you were headed before the rider fell. Most beginner drivers DO NOT arrest the spin of the rear transom from the turn and this can be dangerous because you don’t want the stern rotating into the rider.
6. Approach the rider slowly, have someone throw the rope straight out in front of them. Don’t throw the rope at the rider as the handle can hit them if the sun is in their eyes or you can ding an expensive surfboard. Keep your bow pointed so that the rider stays on the surf side as they get ready to go. Ask your rider to say “READY” never, go, ok, or some other word that can be confusing. It is tough for beginners to get up on the opposite side of the wave and cross over the wash of the boat. Even pros do not want to be pulled up and forced to cross the wave especially when riding switch. In competition this wastes the course too. Keeping the surfer on the surf side is the primary job of the driver. Here is where the thruster is nice but not necessary.

[Tallredrider]

Sorry to the OP that he hasn't gotten a real clear picture of what will happen. There are too many variables to state with much certainty how much you are likely to lose on a 2 year old boat. My experience is that you are going to lose about 25K, but it depends on how good a deal your dealer gives you compared to others. If you get an average deal, and someone else gets a better deal, then nobody will want to buy your used boat because the delta is just too small to make buying used worthwhile.

I believe that most folks that can spend 110K on a wakeboat are more likely to just buy new, so I am surprised that there is any strength in the used market at all. Even Greggmck quotes his last boat sold for 87% of new value. On 150K, that is a 20K loss in 1 year.

[mooneywa]

Maybe I’m missing something here, but if you buy new, you take the $20k ish loss in year one no matter what. Whether you sell it in 1 year, 3 years, or 5 you’re still taking that loss. Of course the overall loss over 5 years isn’t $20k per year, but that 20k first year loss is still baked in.

I don’t think $20k depreciation is that much of a stretch for people who can afford a $150k anyways on a purely fun item they can only use 4 months/year. And that’s a very light depreciation compared to what they’re losing on their German luxury cars. The fall off of a 5 and 7 series BMW in the first 3 years is unbelievable, it’s like lighting money on fire... and yet people still buy them.

With the resale market so relatively strong I’m surprised that companies haven’t started leasing wakeboats.

greggmck - thanks, looks like I’m pretty close where I am now

[PapaBear]

Yes, the first year loss is the worst, so if you buy new every year, you take a huge first year loss every single year. If you buy and hold, you take the massive first year loss once, and then each year you own it, you absorb a smaller yearly depreciation.

The most economically sound way to own any depreciating asset is to buy slightly used after the steepest portion of the depreciation curve, then own it during the flat portion of the depreciation curve, then sell it before the depreciation accelerates again. Figuring out that best time to sell is the hard part.


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[mcosub]

Yes, the first year loss is the worst, so if you buy new every year, you take a huge first year loss every single year. If you buy and hold, you take the massive first year loss once, and then each year you own it, you absorb a smaller yearly depreciation.

The most economically sound way to own any depreciating asset is to buy slightly used after the steepest portion of the depreciation curve, then own it during the flat portion of the depreciation curve, then sell it before the depreciation accelerates again. Figuring out that best time to sell is the hard part.


Sent from my iPhone using PLT Nautique

I agree on the depreciation part of your statement but waiting only allows the new boat to become more expensive each year you wait so it is a double whammy so to speak...............old boat goes down in value while new boats go up each year in MSRP

[Tallredrider]

I agree on the depreciation part of your statement but waiting only allows the new boat to become more expensive each year you wait so it is a double whammy so to speak...............old boat goes down in value while new boats go up each year in MSRP

Good point. And as new boats go up, used boats are able to maintain a higher value, which has driven much of the market for years now. The rise in new boat prices has been inconsistent, some years it seems close to 10%, other years substantially less.

It will be very interesting to see what happens to summer sales with the virus. I will predict a price drop on new boats, but not as much as 2009. Having the factory shut down will help even out some of the supply vs. demand economics that cause boat prices to plummet.

If I were a dealer, I would be selling 2019 boats at firesale prices right now, or they might be stuck with them until spring 2021.

[blueroom]

The numbers you guy's are posting are crazy to me? 200.00 an hour , 20-30k hit in one year , 30 year financing? It looks to me like a G is a bad investment and trying to flip it every year or two is just throwing money away. It would be much cheaper to join the Care Free Boat Club and get new boats to use mo maintenance , Storage or cleaning 4-6 k a year. The way I see it is the surf craze is starting to fade buying a one trick pony surf specific boat is like buying a conversion van at the end of the 90's. 150k plus to surf did I wake up in bizarro world ? I bought a 08 210 new and have been surfing for 10 years now if I sold it today it would loose less than a G will in the first year. You don't want to buy the last conversion van made just before the market crashes.

On paper your comments make sense. Current pandemic crisis aside, it isn't reality. Paragons are selling for $250k like crazy, people keep upgrading, boat prices are going up each year by several percentage points and dealers seem to be doing well. Could this all crash with a larger market issue, for sure. But, I don't think it bears any resemblance to your conversion van analogy. As long as the money is available, these boats are hot.

[Nautiquehunter]

People buy Jaguars, Range Rovers and Audi's. All drop like a rock in value and are ridiculously expensive to repair especially when they are a few years old . I never thought I would include Nautique in this category but I fear they are leaving their core followers behind and building to the latest fad with tons of useless accessory's designed to max out profit . Get it while you can , Why leave money on the table ? The people buying 250k Paragons will be long gone when the s-it hits the fan or the next fad hits the market. If you don't mind loosing 25-50k in the first year then that's the boat for you. *** for every seat you will never see my *** in a 135k ski boat or a 250k wakesurf boat.

[Tallredrider]

I would say that they have found a more lucrative core group of followers and are catering to them. The 2008 'core followers' are no longer worth building boats for.

[blueroom]

You kind of hit the nail on the head. You see the same thing happening with $15,000 snowmobiles, $35,000 side by sides, $75,000 pickups, etc. They sell all they make, for the price they command. Some people get left behind, but that is not who the companies are targeting. This cycle continues over and over, churning out old customers and bringing in new "core" customers. If it didn't, they wouldn't grow or stay in business.

I once did work for a very large corporation with a wide range of products, looking at data mining for customer retention and other customer related efforts. It wasn't what you would expect, they wanted to know who their current customers were that they did not mind losing, for a variety of reasons. Companies have a very good idea of the customers they don't mind driving into obsolescence, as much as they know what customers they want to gain or maintain.

Sorry to burst anyones bubble, but it truly is more about numbers than relationships - or at least relationships that are supported by the numbers.

I am sadly in the obsolescence group. My family members now have other pursuits keeping them busy, and lake days are not a priority for everyone any longer. Boat is listed on onlyinboards.com and have been slowly clearing out surfboards and such. It is funny how overnight you go from being super into it, having some great connections and hookups and living the boating lifestyle - to a sad looking guy with a boat for sale. : )

But, we have the best possible used G23 a person could have, tons of amazing gear and other stuff - time to pass it on to someone who will love it as much as we have. Hopefully there will be an opportunity to get back on the water in the not too distant future.

https://www.onlyinboards.com/2016-Na...on-108076.aspx

[Nautiquehunter]

I agree with everything you said . I have been in the super into it group since 1985. I currently own 6 boats 5 of them are inboards the newest is a 2008 210 I bought new for $55000.00. But I am definitely also in the core group left behind , but thats ok. Over the last 40 years I have seen them come in strong and then loose interest and move on to the next fad or crave .We have just as much fun with my $4000.00 92 comp as you did with your $125000.00 G. The only difference is I will make a profit when I sell it. I hope your sale goes well.

[blueroom]

We have just as much fun with my $4000.00 92 comp as you did with your $125000.00 G. The only difference is I will make a profit when I sell it. I hope your sale goes well.

Sale is what it is, and I am not in a position that I need to do anything, thankfully. More just writing on the wall for peoples participation and involvement this summer.

I don't think people do as bad as you think on these sales, if they do it right. I won't get into specifics, but I don't anticipate losing any money, other than the cost of some basic maintenance and operating costs. This is minimal and is the cost of having fun.

This value proposition is one of the features of owning a Nautique, and especially a G boat. In general, I have come out OK on all my boat sales in the past - even with brand M. Having owned a variety of boats over the years, the better set up you are going into boat ownership, the better you are coming out of it.

Resale, overall value and an exit strategy are always the first thing considered when I make a toy purchase of any kind, down to brand, model, colors and features that will support that eventual resale

I once had an Axis boat that I purchased just after the 4th of July - one of the sweet Vandal edition boats with the skeleton hand on the side. We used it several days a week all summer and it was sold the day before Labor Day for what I paid for it. I had a boat we used a good part of the summer - I never even had to do an oil change and insurance was a few dollars (I think they may have fully refunded it). Quite literally gas was all we put into the boat, and we got a ton of fun out of it. I didn't love the boat as much as my G, but that was probably one of my favorite summers of boat ownership.

Sorry OP, we got a little off topic, but I think it plays into the general theme. : )