the open bow disadvantage

[darrel409]

I just got a call from my partner from our weekend getaway at the Colorado River. He has a 03 Air 206. Was skiing his wife w/ no other boats anywhere nearby. Had 3 people in front (185 lb. guy his 130lb. wife and kid about 30lb.) Plus himself 150lb., observer 180lb, 2 other kids 40 lb each and a 30 lb cattle dog. The wife fell skiing and he said he throttled back to an idle and turned around. This is where the bad stuff starts, his own wake came over the front into the boat. At 8 lbs a gallon the water pulled the front down even lower. He tried to get the water to the back of the boat by giving it a little bit of throttle (his ballast tanks were empty). Because of the passengers and water up front the second wake dumped another load of water over the bow. The third wake pulled the front all the way under and it was time for all passengers to bail, yes all the kids already had vests on. It was instant "yard sale" with everything floating away and sinking, towels, ice chest, lots of shoes, 2 video cameras, a digital, 2 ipods.... It sunk nose down w/ the balast tanks floating up the stern and was under for 2 hours b4 they could pull it back to the house and drain the boat, fuel tank and engine. Tranny didnt take on any water. He has it running again today w/ fresh oil, plugs and some marvol mystery oil in the cylinders. Gauges are intermittent, stereo and amps are toast.
Any other open bow guys have anything like this happen? Is there a weight limit for the front? I told him in the 12 years been driving Closed bow Ski Nautiques only a few times have i had any water even get to the windshield let alone over and into the boat. Comments welcomed. Thanks

[sperbet]

wow, that's rough. I havn't had many problems with my open bow and we weight it very heavily. I do occasionally take on some water, but nothing of that magnitude. Pretty scary.

[Alan-S]

Wow, thats crazy. I bet there is more to it than that. In my SAN on Saturday I ran factory rear tanks, 600# in the locker 1000# in the bow and 6 people in the wrap around seating. I guess if I tried to I could swamp the bow, but I would have to be really careless. Even with all that weight in the bow, it is no lower than a stock malibu. I bet your friend has a leak and his bilge is not working or he forgot his drain plug. Closed bows are cool though. My buddy that slaloms every day has a '81 MC Stars and Stripes with 3,xxx hours on it and he porpises the boat on purpose sometimes, does a full speed 180 and then floors it again, pretty fun, you def. can't do that in an open bow. Sorry to hear of your buddy's mishap.

[ag4ever]

I tend to believe that there was something else going on to cause the swamping. I have a SAN, and even when heavily loaded, I can SWAMP the bow taking on a bow FULL of water, and it just runs to the back and gets pumped out. Is his the model where you have to climb over the seats to get to the bow seating, meaning there is no walk thru, just a windshield that opens? I just can't see the water staying there if there is a walk thru.

I actually dunk the bow at times to intentionally get the people wet when they are not paying attention.

[FatBoy]

Sounds like he should have waited a few seconds longer before turning back into his wake with all that load up front.

[AbunDiga909]

Water can come over the bow easily in a 216, esp. with people in it. But if you know how to drive it right, its easily avoidable.

[AirJeff]

Put two adults up front with no extra weight in the rear and our Air Nautique rides low in front. It's easy at that point to get water over the bow with a big wave.

Had water over a closed bow before, but that was because the throttle got stuck open...and instead of turning the boat or turning it off the driver pulled until it released and went straight into full reverse at 30mph! :shock: Didn't sink, but had to bail water for a long time.

[G-man]

I only have two in the open bow of my 206 and that's a rare occasion. I use to have a Ski Brendella in 91, fondly known as the submarine, low low open bow. I learned quickly not to nose into wakes at idle but to be sideways and roll with them. Coming to idle speed and waiting for the wakes to pass before turning around works also.

[darrel409]

Its definatly different in a SAN, his is direct drive and he had only about 8 gal. of fuel and that was it for weight at the stern. His auto bilge was on, so no extra water there. Drain plug was in, it was their second day out. He told me he thinks one problem was that his center windshield was closed (it has the rear view mirror att. to it) so he could watch the wife ski too. When the first wave came in the front passengers couldnt move quickly thru the walk thru because it was closed.
News travels fast, one of our up river neighbors stopped by to tell him that they swamped their open bow SN 4 years ago. They have a closed bow now.
Also just for the record, this guy has at least 20 years boating experience, this is his first Nautuque.

[BigBald]

I can't say that I have ever had that happen to me either. Of course, if there are enough folks to be in the bow. then the rear seats are also full of folks.

I have re-read the orginal question a couple of times to try and figure out what might have happen....it looks like there was not a lot of weight towards the back of the boat....especially with no water in the ballast tanks. Maybe some more weight in the back would have overcome the weight in the front???

I have a 99 Sport with no ballast. I haven't had anything even close to that happen to me. I do occasionally get the folks up front wet on purpose.

One thing that I am wondering about.....As a rule, I don't usually make any sharp turns back to the skier unless they look to be hurt or didn't give me the high sign. When I need to turn fast, then I usually turn around under power to get back to the skier quickly.
Normally, when returning to a skier, I bring the boat to idle and turn to the right (clockwise) with minimal or no power....I then apply some reverse to back up a bit (this also swings the back end of the boat on around) and then, under forward power, I complete the turn and go back to the skier. I very seldom hit my own wake directly. This also helps minimize messing up the water. Saw this technique at a Vans tournament and it works great.

[Alan-S]

Yea sorry for the SAN comparison, I guess it is really different. Sounds like it was just a balance issue. He had 345# in the bow, and maybe 80#'s in the stern. Driver, spotter, engine are neutral. Combine that with no ballast and low on gas, I bet his swim platform was at least 8" out of the water. Not to knock your friends boating experience but in small boats like nautiques you have to really think about his stuff more. I personally am really cautious about side to side weight when i am cruising 35+ because I like to turn sharp and dont like it when the boat "chines" sp? Scary as ****, happens on my parents fishing boats. Plus you look like a wally going down the river/lake all sideways. I leave that to those 20' long 18' tall I/Os that seat 4 people.

[Eggie]

On the 206, you have to keep the nose up even when empty. With the weight listed in the bow above it's even more important. I question the forward visibility that guy had with those people up front. I'm 6'2" and its difficult to see past anyone setting up front unless their scrunched way down.

[bkhallpass]

Darrel,

Sorry to hear about your friends boat. Obviously I wasnt' there,
but this really sound like it was probably driver error. Here are my
thoughts:

First, the capacity of that boat is 1210 lbs. By your numbers he
was carrying 815 lbs of Human and dog, ALL FORWARD OF THE ENGINE!
This is not to mention the coolers, ski equipment, etc. He was
probably at or near capacity, and was very heavily front end loaded.

Second, you say there were no boats around. Thus the wake
kicked up was his own. The only way I can see to throw up
a wake that big is with a big power turn after the skiier fell.
I can't think of why this would be necessary when there were no
boats around, and therefore no need to rush back to the skiier.
As discussed on this site many times, when the skiier falls
the driver should throttle back, make a smooth turn, and idle back
to the skiier. This minimizes wakes for the boat, skiier, and minimizes
rollers for everyon else on the lake.

Third, your friend must have failed to throttle up when going up the wake, and therby swamped the nose. It is easy to dip the nose, even with an empty boat if you aren't paying close attention. In this case,
the problem was probably exacerbated by all the front end weighting.

Still I'm surprised he swamped the boat. He must have really buried
the nose to take on that much water that quickly.

On the good side. These boats are resilient. My neighbor drives
a sport nautique which was completely submerged on Lake
Tahoe about four years ago. It was fresh water, the boat was
dried out, the motor was pickled (all the fluids, etc. flushed changed) battery changed, gas tank cleaned and dried, and it fired right up. He didn't even have to change the wires or plugs. It has run great ever since.

Good luick and I hope you get that 206 back on the water as soon as
possible.

[darrel409]

I think everyone has a piece of the answer... He did say his vision was obstructed by front passenger, didnt expect water coming over the bow. Had too much weight forward of the engine, and after the first wave and the added weight it wouldnt power over the next wake but apparently under it. BTW he had the boat running again b4 the end of the day. Its not running perfect yet. He is blowing/drying all the connectors, dash connections, alternator... so they will work. He says gauges are clearing and starting to work again.

[Mikeski]

Just one more reason not to power turn.

[ST]

How many people who buy recreational boats actually bother to take a boating safety course or read some safety literature? I've seen a lot of emphasis on proper weight distribution and how to deal with waves. A small direct-drive boat, 4 adults ahead of the engine with none behind, and bad driving/limited visibility...I'm not surprised at all about what happened (I don't mean to be harsh).

It's really sad that so many boaters have to learn their lessons the hard way. People think, "Steering wheel, throttle...what's there to learn?" Surprise! I don't blame them though. When people buy a new boat, do the dealers say, "Have you owned a boat before? Have you taken any classes?" Nope.

[OldFart]

Sounds like the majority says that there is NO open bow disadvantage; just need to compensate in one's driving. Seems like the INDUSTRY says so, that's about all that is selling.

[coinless]

The best advice I ever got was in how to pick up a skier. When a skier falls, throttle back turn to the left first until your boat settles, then turn back to the right and drive slowly to pick up your skier on the driver's side . You will never submarine if you drive this pattern.

[Grant_West]

I have a AIR Nautique, The Air and the 206 are basically the same boat, The boat rides much lower than a SAN, especially in the front. Having a 185 lb guy and his wife and his dog is a sure way to swamp your open bow boat. Even for a experianced driver doing nothing wrong just Ideling along I could see water splashing up and into the open bow, Is this a design falw or just using the boat in a way it was not ment to be used.

IMO the open bow on my Air must be used with caution. I only have small or light weight Lady's up there. For 2 reasons,

1. With any extra weight up there you have to be extra carefull how you drive and come off of plane and even Idle.

2. Looking at some 185lb dude in the front of my boat as I bounce down the lake is not my cup of tea, Get his a$$ in the back and swap him out for a spinner and your all good

[tourpro]

With some of the crazy pictures I've seen of weighted boats for surfing and wakeboarding I'm very surprised we don't hear more sunken inboard stories.

[ryanandrews]

some people just shouldnt own boats......no reason for that at all, as he said no one else was out there!..... :mrgreen:

[inboard60]

Normally I am very aware of keeping my bow up with a load during a slow turn around to pick up the skiers. I have instructed my kids to say FALL when someone falls . . back completely out of the throttle un less we have the ballast full then make a slow turn and back around the skier . . . BUT the past weekend we had a full 01SAN with three teens up front and five and me in the back, no ballast . . . it was hot and I decided to dip the front just a little . . . well while we did not swamp the boat it did make me very nervous not to mention soaking the carpet under the seats, which I try hard to keep dry and also got all over my amps . . . what seemed cute almost ended up costing some big bucks . . . won't do it again . . . just watched the guy on you tube swamp the open bow . . . days of power turning are over . . . we then went to the surf mode with everyone on the left side of the boat . . . great surf wake but had to be very cautious in the turn around . . . has anyone swamped one sideways with the new "surfing" sport?

[NautiqueJeff]

. . . BUT the past weekend we had a full 01SAN with three teens up front and five and me in the back, no ballast . . . it was hot and I decided to dip the front just a little . . . well while we did not swamp the boat it did make me very nervous not to mention soaking the carpet under the seats, which I try hard to keep dry and also got all over my amps . . . what seemed cute almost ended up costing some big bucks . . . won't do it again . . .

Here's the result of a similar situation on the Alligator Chain in an X-Star. This took about 20 minutes to pump out.

[WakeSlayer]

" has anyone swamped one sideways with the new "surfing" sport? "

Certainly not "swamped" but I have taken a bit over the side in the back corner lately. getting to where I simply need to put less weight in for surfing. We all ride perfectly well and a slightly smaller wake is hardly going to be noticeable. My boat has actually gone into limp mode once. Oops.

Lastly, Jeff, what in the heck color is the water in the XStar ?

[NautiqueJeff]

That is the beautiful Coke-brown water of Lake Lizzie in St. Cloud, FL.

[NCH2oSki]

I have taken water over the windshield of my 196 before, sometimes no matter what you do its not enough when you encounter the wake from a 75' yacht going wide open. If I had an open bow I could never imagine haveing people in the bow when I was skiing. They are lucky no one was injured.

[WakeSlayer]

I have skiied in some interesting water before, but have not seen that......

[MHayes]

I have skiied in some interesting water before, but have not seen that......

You must have never skiied in FL before then.....it also makes it difficult to see the gators :shock:

[darrel409]

03 206 sunken boat update. Boat has been up and running since being dunked. No lingering problems or issues. If your going to sink your boat just hope you own a Nautique...takes a dunkin and keeps on truckin. :grin:

[WakeSlayer]

I have skiied a few times in the Brisbane River in Qld, AUS, and the water there is so murky that you cannot see the thousands of bull sharks Yellow_Flash_Colorz: swimming under you. Comforting, I think............ NOT !

[MHayes]

I have skiied a few times in the Brisbane River in Qld, AUS, and the water there is so murky that you cannot see the thousands of bull sharks Yellow_Flash_Colorz: swimming under you. Comforting, I think............ NOT !

That just sent a chill up my spine! Yellow_Flash_Colorz:

[WakeSlayer]

indeed. and the locals don't think anything of it really. They give me crap for being nervous about it......

[AuMDLST]

Tanic Acid = Coke brown

[AuMDLST]

$300 plus two friends for a night out drinkin (not on a Nautique) = Two dead gators and one good cookout for the neighbors

[peterkarlsson]

These things never happen when you power turn! Or I don't understand the concept of power turns.

To do this, you would kill the throttle really fast, then turn quickly enough at idle to hit your own 1st wake straight on.
If the water can't escape the bow fast enough, and it will not because in most cases it will get into the storage under the cushions and only slowly go backwards to the bilge then the next wake will be even worse.

So to avoid this, throttle down slowly, turn slow so you get hit by your wakes from the side and you'll be safe all the time even with huge wakes.

Another alternative is to throttle down and keep going straight in idle then turn in idle and maybe even go into reverse to go back in your own path. In the middle there will be almost no wakes at all.

[Fast351]

These things never happen when you power turn! Or I don't understand the concept of power turns.

These things can and definitely DO happen when you power turn.

I come from I/O's where it seems stylish to power turn, which is REALLY bad for the gimbal bearings. I had to reeducate my wife, and myself (although I seem to have picked it up much faster) after watching "The Book". They have a specific lesson on driving, including the correct way to turn around so you don't screw up the lake.

Anyway, if you're surfing at 10 MPH, and you turn at that speed to pick up a fallen rider, you'll swamp the boat every time. If you're wakeboarding at 20 and you turn hard enough to nose into your own wake, you will also take water over the bow. I've done it. It's repeatable. It happens when you power turn.


Another alternative is to throttle down and keep going straight in idle then turn in idle and maybe even go into reverse to go back in your own path. In the middle there will be almost no wakes at all.

This is the right and safest (and least destructive to the quality of the water) way to turn around. I haven't found a need to reverse the boat, but if you wait until the hull settles into the water and stops, and let the waves go by, you can almost turn the boat on it's own axis and roll back the way you came. No way to take water over the bow then.

BTW, my dealer did ask if I'd owned a boat before and if I was comfortable with it's operation. They even explained the differences in backing up with an inboard vs I/O. Some do it right!

[peterkarlsson]

Sorry for possibly confusing ya'll, where I come from power turns are when the boat is going at planing speeds which for most boats are above wakeboarding speeds.