Follow-up. 93 Sport Nautique. New problem-help!

[thevogt]

Got my Sport back from Bell Lake Marine on Saturday. The marina said all checked well with everything else on the boat. They replaced the accelerator pump and cleaned out the carb idle circuits, tightened the prop shaft nut and water tested it. All pumps worked and my suspected trans leak that I asked them to check was a no-show. They put about an hour on the clock, so I had no reason to doubt them as there was no red oil in the engine area at all. Got her on the water for about 3-4 hours today to take the kids and cousins tubing. The technician told me he had to set the idle up (1200 rpm in neutral) because it was stalling going in forward if it was set to specs. Reverse was fine. Once it warmed up it was better, but would still bog pretty bad in forward gear. Checking for excess water after coming out of the water, while sitting in the driveway, I noticed my pool of trans oil had returned. WHAT THE.....! Could the high idle be causing unusually high pressure in the trans when putting it in gear, or do I have a front seal leaking as I originally suspected? Anyone have any advice? Do I bite the bullet and have the motor/trans pulled to replace the seal? Or has anyone had any experience with an additive that may cure my leak? Sorry to be long-winded, but I had to vent. My wife doesn't deserve to hear it on mother's day. Thanks.

Gary

[siuski]

I had a small tranny leak last year on my 93, had the dealer pull trany and replace the front seal (not the input shaft), ~$250 total. Drip gone. That idle is very high. Mine would do that after a hard pull, very hard into gear at that rpm, can't imagine that is good on the trany. Sounds like something else is amiss. They adjusted my throttle stop on the carb, and it seemed to do the trick...idles around ~500-600 rpm after it is warmed up. Have they done a compression check? I had other problems associated with the ignition, but they found I had almost 30 psi diferential between the cylinders so I had other problems...got them fixed, the boat runs cherry now, put 10 hours on this weekend, no problems. good luck.

[thevogt]

siuski-
I am fearful of a deeper trans problem than just the leak. There is no bog or lug going into reverse, only forward gear. The technician at Bell Lake Marine told me this before I picked it up on Saturday. He had the idle set to specs and it would die going in gear forward but not reverse. I seem to remember it always doing that, to a degree, since new. I have the 5.8L Pro Boss with the PCM 1.23:1 trans. I may fill it up and set the idle down and try it myself before trailering it for another repair bill. Thanks for your input.

Gary

[nms1991]

the motor should only idle between 600 to 750 in gear. on that vintage of boat to adjust the idle mixture and speed you need to disconnect the knock sensor. but remember to rehook up the knock sensor before trying to run the boat over 1000 rpm or more. Check to make sure your shaft turns over easily. more than likely the trans is leaking from the drain plug on t6he bottom of the trans, I would recommend removing the trans and having the plug resealed and check the input shaft seal for any damage.

[thevogt]

Where is the knock sensor located? The only electrical connection on the carb is the choke. The idle is set up because of the stalling going in to forward, but not reverse, gear if set to specs.

Gary

[siuski]

Just a thought, but more torque would be required from the motor to spin the prop in the forward direction due to the cup or dish. The prop doesn't really 'bite' in reverse. This could explain the motor bogging in forward and not reverse. Again just a thought, but I'd make sure the motor is in tip top shape before you chase the problem to the trany.

[thevogt]

siuski-
If it didn't run sooo well, I would suspect an engine problem. The thing will still get to 47-48 MPH in a few ticks. It only has 100 hours on it and, until it sat for a few years, was maintained perfectly. The trans leak is what is concerning me. I am also going to check the packing to see if it rotates more freely in one direction or the other. Thanks for your response.

Gary

[LargeMetalFan]

thevogt,

In regards to the bogging problem at idle speed in forward gear, I had the same problem last year with my '94 Sport 5.8 HO Pro Boss. I did three things to solve it, but I'm not sure which one was the key. First, I replaced the packing on the shaft. Someone told me that after several years of use and tightening the nut every year might put too much lateral pressure on the shaft causing it to bind. I also increased the idle speed (while in forward gear) to about 700rpm. The last thing I did was to adjust the fuel/air mixuture on the carburator. To do that, I had someone drive the boat in forward gear at idle speed while I adjusted each side until the engine ran a smoothly as I could tell by listening.

[thevogt]

LMF-
Thanks. I was leaning towards the packing myself. I'm heading to the garage in a few to check rotational resistance in both directions. I read somewhere on here that it should spin freely in both directions. Will post back after I check that. I'll have to wait until this weekend to put it back in the water to play with the carb.

Gary

[thevogt]

OK. I checked the rotational resistance of the shaft last night. It will turn both directions with one hand at the same pressure. That should eliminate the stiff packing theory. Now what? I'm going to put it in the water this weekend and play with the carb adjustments. Is it possible that the trans is going into gear too quickly in forward, thus causing a bog? Is there some kind of buffer system that is supposed to ease it into gear so as not to lug or bog the motor? Sorry to sound so ignorant, but boat transmissions are not my forte. Thanks for everyone's help in the past and hopefully the future.

Gary

[tryan]

i know that puppy sat for a while. see if you can get at the pick up screen to clean it and change the transmission fluid a couple times. there is a test port on the top of the trans. did the dealer check the port pressures?

post the problem on marinegears.com and see if mark will give you any insight. (they also have excellent prices on parts/seals ect)

is your transient response okay on the carb from say 2k to 3k? is your acceleration pump in good working condition? there are a few adjustments, but you should be able to hear (and see) it squirt with the engine off. you might have a little garbage in the circuit.

[thevogt]

tryan,
Accel pump is new. Response is awsome. The holeshot is great once it is in gear and idling. The problem is the neutral to forward slow idle take-off. If you just ease it into forward gear, it wants to bog like I'm towing a cruiser behind me. The tech at the marina said if it was set to 650-700 RPM idle in gear, it would die going into forward, but not reverse, from the neutral position. It is now idling at 1200 RPM when warm in neutral. That is the transmission's threshold of pain according to the PCM manual (thanks Jeff for the upload and midohionautiques for providing it to Jeff). If I can get this sorted out, I'll know how to deal with the trans leak. If this is an internal trans problem, I'll either have it rebuilt or get a rebuilt exchange. If it is just an adjustment somewhere, I'll nurse the leak for the season and deal with it this winter if it doesn't get any worse. I've got a baby coming in July and money is being redirected, so the season may end prematurely anyway. I'll try marinegears also and see if they can shed any new light on the situation. Thanks for all the responses everyone.

Gary

[thevogt]

What to do, what to do? Decided to go and visit Bell Lake Marine today during the grand opening bash they were throwing. What did I find, but a NEW leftover 206 Limited on a Ram-Lin trailer. Mine is going back to them in the morning to get the idle situation sorted out. They were doing their best to convince me that the 206 should be going home with me. I can't deny strongly considering it. My old '93 is about a year from free & clear, so I'm having a hard time justifying pulling the trigger with a little one coming in July. They (Manager and Sales Manager) did say that the work they did was guaranteed and to bring it back in and "we'll make it right". So how does this deal sound?

2003 206 Limited, Silver Cloud hull with a med blue primary and gray secondary stripe, 330HP excalibur w/5 yr warr, teak platform, Clarion CD, cover, battery safety switch, pop out cleats, bow speakers (6 total). MSRP stated at $43900 with trailer. Discounted to $39510. They are giving me $12809 for mine. Net diff plus tax & fees is $26701.

Share your thoughts. Are they fair or still a little too high on the leftover? What about my '93 value?

Just thought I'd share and hope for a rational 3rd party opinion. Looking at new, even leftover, Nautiques gets me too emotional.

Gary

[go46]

Babies are expensive, and it doesn't seem that you get much use out of your boat.

[thevogt]

go46-

I can see where that assumption could be made based on my postings. However, we have built a new house in a ski lake community and are 3 houses from the boat ramp. Hence, the renewed intrest in getting on the water. Prior to moving, we lived in an area that was inconvenient to say the least. Our best option was the Alafia river that led to Tampa Bay and is choked with traffic on the weekends. Not to mention my utter disdain for putting a Nautique in salt or brackish water. We now will have our evenings as well as weekends to enjoy the boat. If the deal is right on the 206, I would simply be swapping one payment for the other. But, I don't want to pay too much for what is essentially a 2 year old new boat. The other point about babies being expensive is spot on! Been there, done that. Thanks for your response. Have a great day on the water.

Gary

[Air206]

The final authority- What does your pregnant wife say??? If she isn't gung-ho on a new boat, that will cost you more than money .. proceed cautiously (fellow married guy - with a great wife who loves Nautiques!!!! Thank Goodness-) !!!!!

BTW - I sold a '92 CC and bought an '04 206 (ZR6) - it is awesome but EXPENSIVE, esp after the 92 payments have been over for a while.........

[thevogt]

She's ok with the new boat as long as we keep the payment the same as the '93. My concern is the deal itself. I bought my '93 in July of the same year and it was discounted over $8000 from the stated MSRP. This is a 2 year old new boat that they are only discounting it $4000. Have they lost markup in 10 model years or was I lucky the first time? The best bet for this season may be to refinance the '93 and pull some repair cash from it. Oh well. Thanks for the response.

Gary

[Air206]

She's ok with the new boat as long as we keep the payment the same as the '93. My concern is the deal itself. I bought my '93 in July of the same year and it was discounted over $8000 from the stated MSRP. This is a 2 year old new boat that they are only discounting it $4000. Have they lost markup in 10 model years or was I lucky the first time? The best bet for this season may be to refinance the '93 and pull some repair cash from it. Oh well. Thanks for the response.

Gary

These links may help figure out which side of the deal you are on:

http://www.flipsell.com/Phase3/home/DispVehicle.asp?VehicleID=6395

http://www.flipsell.com/Phase3/home/DispVehicle.asp?VehicleID=6327

http://www.flipsell.com/Phase3/home/DispVehicle.asp?VehicleID=6342

http://www.flipsell.com/Phase3/home/DispVehicle.asp?VehicleID=6142

http://www.flipsell.com/Phase3/home/DispVehicle.asp?VehicleID=5810

NADA Guides (http://www.nadaguides.com/Values/ValueOptions.asp?UserID=51082046A9D01&DID=38123&Type=MR&GCode=MR&wPg=1106&wSec=4&Com=0385&Year=1993&Model=1600047869)

I would wonder what the rig is worth once it is titled to me with ______ hours .... If that number sounds about right, it is nice to get that number without advertizing and being without a boat. Convenience costs a little - the question is that cost effective for you??

[thevogt]

Air206-

Those were my thoughts. Although it is a new boat with 4 hours on it, it is 2 years old. Thanks for the links, cool site. Had the NADA site already and there was no 2003 option for CC boats, oh well. I think they have some room left to negotiate based on the fact they went to Tennessee to get the boat. It must have been a great buy for them if they went that far to get it. If I got over 8K off the one year old new '93, there has to be more room on the '03. At least I hope so. We'll see what the technician has to say on monday about the carb and transmission and go from there. My experience with the warranty of the previous repairs will have alot to do with my willingness to conduct future business with them. I post the results when they happen.

Gary

[SGY]

Have you gone out in the 206 yet? You owe it to yourself to go for a ride. I love my 206.

I think the deal on the 206 is fair--although you might be able to get them to come down a bit more. This is especially true if CC is making any changes to the 05 model. I curious where they are coming up with around $12,000 for your 93 Sport. I would've thought it was worth at least $17,000 retail and about $14,000 wholesale. I've seen some 93 and 94 Sports sell for $17,000 to $18,000 range. You might think about trying to sell the Sport yourself. Shouldn't be that hard to sell in your area.

Go for a ride in the 206.

[SGY]

P.S. As a point of reference,I bought my 206 Limited with 85 hours for $35,000. It has PP, shower, heater, custom mooring cover, single axle Ramlin, Bimini. You can find them for under $35,000 now. I wouldn't hesitate to buy used. You still can get the lifetime hull, deck, and stringer warranty and the balance of PCM's warranty (I think.) Also, I almost pulled the trigger on a new 206 Limited with none of the above options for $33,500--from Clear Lake Marina in Pa. So, you can push them a bit.

[thevogt]

SGY,
Thanks. That is exactly the info I was looking for. I knew they had to have mor room to move either on my boat or theirs. I think they are $4-5k away from a real deal with me. If I can get them in that range with a bimini thrown in, I think I'll pull the trigger. Besides, I may be looking at a few hundred worth of trans leak to fix anyway. Thanks again.

Gary

[SGY]

No sweat. Keep in mind that at the time, CC was offering a rebate or something similar on new 03's. This put them at $31,000 for the boat and another $2500 (approximate) for trailer. With the Ramlin, it was closer to $3000.

Also, the Navigation Company in PA was offering a used 206 for $33,700 with PP and Bimini, etc. It was a signature edition, however. It had around 100 hours.

By the way, Clear Lake Marina is in Indiana, The Navigation Company is in PA. Both were very good to work with. You might also call the guys at Mid Ohio Nautiques. They too are very good and seem to have the selection. If your serious, about a buy, I'd do some research. For example, Seth Stisher had his Promo 206 for sale for $35,700 or so. Not sure if it is still for sale but it was the nicest I've seen. It is all black with a silver cloud secondary stripe. It is the Limited Edition and has a tower and bimini tower with PP and shower and heater. Sweet boat. I'll see if I can still find it and will post here again.

[SGY]

I found Stisher's boat. It's on Ski-it-again.com. You'll have to scroll three or four pages deep into you find it. Its the 2003 206 and is listed for $35,700. IMHO, it's the nicest 206 for sale right now. And because its a promo, chances are good it's been well cared for.

Good luck.

[thevogt]

Great info, thanks. I'm leaning towards the new(er) boat just for the sake of reliability. If you can post some links for some of these other places you've mentioned, it would be great. Thanks again for your input. It is very helpful.

Gary

[SGY]

Hey Gary, the 03 and 04 models are identical--save a few cosmetics and stereo remote. (The 03 was the first year for the 206.) I wouldn't be too worried about reliability of an 03 206. In fact a promo boat would have all kinks (assuming there are any) worked out.

Here are some links.

www.ski-it-again.com

www.flipsell.com

www.boattrader.com

On the boattrader link just do a search for Correct Craft as the mfg'er and 206 under the key word search.

Good luck.

[Air206]

Hey Gary, the 03 and 04 models are identical--save a few cosmetics and stereo remote. (The 03 was the first year for the 206.) I wouldn't be too worried about reliability of an 03 206. In fact a promo boat would have all kinks (assuming there are any) worked out.

Here are some links.

www.ski-it-again.com

www.flipsell.com

www.boattrader.com

On the boattrader link just do a search for Correct Craft as the mfg'er and 206 under the key word search.

Good luck.One thing - The ballast tank options changed in '04 (colored deck too). If your ballast tank requirements are great. '04s have a single, smaller tank whereas the 03's have 2 tanks for double the weight. To help w/ space on our '04 206 we went w/o hard tanks and I'm plumbing in perm bladders - that way we get the space when not full of water. Just a comment for the discussion.............

[thevogt]

Thanks for the links. Reliability was in reference to my '93. No boarders in the family, yet, so the tanks aren't an issue. Got to teach them to ski and such first. The lake is new to all of us, although I grew up show skiing on Wonder Lake in Illinois. They still have a little fear of the unknown if you know what I mean. Hopefully the deal on the 206 will sweeten in the next day or so. The one at Bell Lake that I'm looking at is a new leftover '03 with 4.6 hrs on the clock. Thanks for all the input from everyone. Maybe I'll get some good news on the '93 while I mull over the deal on the '03 206.

Gary

[thevogt]

Just got the call from the shop on my trans/idle problem. As they stated before, the boat will go into reverse without a bog at the specified idle RPM. It wil bog and die in forward. Their diagnosis, other than the front seal leak, is the power valve is sticking and possible forward clutch pack damage. Labor to pull and diagnose only and reinstall without repair is $200. It could cost, according to them, $400-600 to replace the power valve and fron seal including all labor. I know I can get a rebuilt exchange with a 1yr warranty for $850 plus shipping. Anyone have any advice? I have told them I will get back to them on whether to go ahead or not. Am I crazy for thinking of dumping it or should I shop the repair around to another shop? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

Gary

[NautiqueJeff]

If you're going to keep it, I would go ahead and have a rebuilt unit installed. That way you know everything will work. Having yours repaired costs almost as much, and the peace of mind of having a new one would be worth the extra little bit of money to me.

That being said, If you're living in a ski community now, you'll most likely be putting LOTS of hours on your boat. That 206 sounds very tempting. If I was in your place, I'd look hard at the 206.

[thevogt]

Thanks Jeff. Sounds like a flip of the coin. Have to ponder it for a little while. Maybe a refinance for now on the '93.

Gary

[thevogt]

Gonna refinance the '93. Went and picked it up from the shop. Guess I called them just in time. When I left it on saturday, they said they would check it out again and call me. Since I hadn't heard anything as of 4pm on tuesday I decided to call and check. The diagnosis was to pull the trans and check the power(?) valve and replace it and the front seal. Could cost $400-650 to fix. I told them I would call back with a decision. Called them this am and told them not to do anything. They were just about to pull the trans when I called. Pretty assumptive of them, huh? Anyway, S.E.C.C. said to check a few things before pulling the trans. The throttle linkage alignment at the carb when it is just barely in forward gear and the selector valve on the trans may be gummed up. I've checked the linkage and it was off by one mounting hole on the cable mount. Hopefully that will do it. I'll put it in the water this weekend and post the results. I'm sure the trans will have to come out for the front seal, but maybe this will cure the stall in forward. Thanks for listening.

Gary

[Air206]

Yeah! - Good Luck with her..........