Need new block? - 85 SN 2001

[Tranner]

After reading every post on here this is my first time posting on this site and I'm looking any advice possible.

I recently bought an 85 SN 2001 with 595 hours. The previous owner used it in salt water quite a bit and the engine & tranny clearly show the rust to prove it. Nonetheless, I bought the boat for a really good price and used once for about 2 hours on a small fresh water lake. The motor actually ran really well but wouldn't come back on after shutting it off to pick up a skier. Once I finally got it started after 30 minutes of sitting, it ran great but died one time when we were idling around.

Last weekend, I did some standard maintenance such as cap/rotor, flushed the closed cooling system, oil, and tranny fluids. After I flushed the system, I started the motor with a hose attachment and tried to let it get hot while I was filling up the 50/50 coolant/water mixture. The boat ran at idle in my driveway for 15 minutes and never got past 100 degrees. It took about 1 gallon of coolant mixture and then I shut here off. Later in the hour, I go to restart to make sure everything was cool. The boat would not turn over so I spent my weekend going through battery, starter, and finally pulled the spark plugs and tryed to crank it over dry to see if it might be fuel or spark holding it back.

The worst thing happened when starting with the plugs out. Water shot out of 6 0f the 8 spark plug holes. I've taken it to a few car mechanics that all say the motor is shot and that I should just get a rebuilt motor from Jaspers and drop it in there. Any thoughts before I slam $2K onto my credit card?

Thanks in advance,
John

[thevogt]

Don't give up, yet. Your hard start problem is due to the water entering the cylinders after shut-down. It turns into steam rapidly and creates enough pressure in the combustion chamber to stop a heathy starting system cold. My advice would be to have the heads pulled by someone with the proper tools and facilities to look for a bad head gasket. Salt can kill a head gasket real quick. Before tearing it apart, the first test should be a compression test on all cylinders to make sure your rings, pistons, valves, etc. are doing their job. You are looking for a minimum acceptable pressure with consistency between the cylinder readings being the most important factor. If the readings are a little on the low side, it's okay if they are consistent. You will suffer a performance loss, but save the cost of a short block or long block replacement. Hope this gives you a starting point. Let us all know how it turns out. Good luck.

Gary

[ag4ever]

If it has a closed cooling system, the salt should have never gotten anywhere near the head gasket. I would bet the water is coming in the exhaust ports to the valves from the exhaust manifolds. Either way, your problem is going to be head related. You might just need new head, or the current ones reworked as in a valve job, surfacing, and maybee ne valves.

Like Gary said, the first place to start is a compression check to determine which cylinders are the worst, and if that are all low compression. It might have bad rings if run too long with water getting into the cylinders.

[Tranner]

Thanks for responses. They are more appreciated than you know.

I am really new to inboards. I've been around outboards (ie: 72 Glastron) most of my life.

I've been told that maybe I have a cracked intake manifold. So what I'm doing before giving up on the motor is putting a little mystery lube (small amounts of tranny oil) down each of the spark plug holes and let it sit each night for a couple days. I'll go back and try to crank it without plugs again on Friday night. If that doesn't work, I'm gonna pull the intake manifold. I have not done it yet due to the high amount of rust on the entire block. I'm afraid I'll break bolts/studs when trying to remove the manifold.

Where do I get something to test compression? And how much will something like that cost?

[Rick]

Any auto parts store will have a compression tester. The better ones screw into the spearkplug holes The inexpensive ones you just hold in while cranking. The compression doesn't really matter as long as it's abpove 100 PSI It's more important that there is less than a 10% difference. Try it dry and then squirt a litle oil in it and tryt it again. If it increases significantly your rings are bad. With all rust you are talking about there is a chance the exhaust manifold is shot and leaking into the heads. That is what happened to mine. Were are you located? I have a great rebuilder in San Diego

[SANfan]

Before you pull the head, pull the exhaust manifolds - the first thing that gets eaten up on salt-water boats (fresh or raw water cooled) is the exhaust risers. the combination of hot gas and salt drastically shortens the life. If the risers are mostly eaten away and you were running the boat at anything approachin a neutral or nose-down position, as soon as you cut the motor off the water in the manifold would run back into every open exhaust valve., hydraulically locking the engine. That would explain why the engine ran ok MOST of the time on the water, but dies sometimes at idle (more back pressure, more neutral angle). You don't have to pull the manifolds themselves (yet), just pull the risers and see if the top of the manifold extension is eaten away.

If that's the case (and you're going to keep the boat), diconnect the raw water pump (so you won't burn the impeller up) and do the compression tests above. If this problem has been there for awhile, your compression should be all over the place because of exhaust valve damage. Unfortunately, it's difficult to tell if the problem is restricted to the heads, so if the compression is screwed you may want to consider a new long block or a rebuild. If you luck out and compression is consistent, I'd put new manifolds on it and see what happens.

That is, unless your oil is milky, indicating water past the rings. If that's the case, I'd start over, but I'm more paranoid than most.

[Tranner]

After reading a little more, I forgot to mention a couple things. There is absolutely zero water in the oil as far as I see. I pulled the dipstick and the oil was clean with no water or bubbles of any sort in it.

As for the exhaust manifolds, I haven't got that far yet but I don't really know if they could be rusted. The exhaust manifolds are stainless ones made by Commander. Don't ask me how old they are but from the eye, I don't see them being much older than a couple years because they look really good.

I know it's hard for most to give advice without seeing or hearing the motor crank but does it make any difference that; before all this motor mishap started, when I flushed the closed cooling reservoir, the stuff coming out looked like brown water? I know it isn't a good sign but I thought since the system was closed, why would the fluid coming out look so brown/dark?

[Tranner]

By the way, Rick-- I live about 2 hours from San Diego. I'm interested in talking with your engine rebuilder. Let me know.

[SANfan]

If you take the cap off the closed system while the engine is running, do you get bubbles in the opening? It could be that the previous owner never changed it, also could be the potential head gasket problem mentioned earlier. If you're getting bubbles, you could be getting compression gases blown by the gasket.

I'm afraid you may have found your problem. Your engine may have new manifolds because one or both of the old ones failed, and the previous owner slapped a new set on there and sold the boat before the damage that the failure caused worsened. If that's the case the potential for damages is widespread. You didn't mention knocking, so the HOPE is that it didn't hydro-lock hard enough to damage a piston or rod, and if the oil is clean and non-milky, you may have avoided a cracked block or serious ring damage.

You could go with a full rebuild or a long block, or you could try rebuilding just the heads (I'd have them tested for cracks). If you still had problems after the head job, you could then go the short block route. This would be potentially the most work, but you might save a chunk of change if it's just the heads that need work.

Of course, this is all opinion that I can throw out safely since you're 3000 miles away. Unless you're real comfortable looking at lots of little greasy parts, the best bet is to get a mech other people recommend to set your course of action. Rick may have your smartest solution.

Once you get everything put back together (clean up and paint the tranny and all while you're at it), I would spray everything except belts two or three times a year with BoeShield T-9. This stuff is made by Boeing for protecting metal, and I have never found anything else that works as well. I ran an offshore boat with twin OBs for 5 years, and when I sold it there wasn't a sign of corrosion anywhere under the cowlings, despite being in the water 24/7. Spray the wires and everything metal (except open electrical plugs and the afore-mentioned belts), motor mounts and all.

Good Luck!

[Rick]

The shop is Speed Specialities 4781 El Cajon Blvd. 619 287-4500 The've been around for decades. The guy across the stereet used him 30 years to rebuild his motors. With all the problems you say you have and with obvious salt water intrusion, I'd bite the bullet and do a rebuild now. Why fix a gasket or head just ot find out the block is about to rust out. Also when you pull the engine the tranny will be with it. No better time than now to overhall or just clean and repaint it.

[Tranner]

I tried a compression test the other night and the motor won't even turn good enough to get semi-accurate readings.

SANfan, no bubbles coming up from the closed cooling reservoir when I filled it. Can't do it now since the motor will barely turn.

Rick, I called Speed Specialists and they quoted $1650 to $1900, depending on if I need a new block due to corrosion.

I've been quoted $2000 from Jaspers Engines who is supposedly a very reputable rebuilder specializing in NASCAR and Marine.

I called a place called Dania Marine Corp, or something like that. They sell brand new long blocks in the box for $3000.

I wish money wasn't an issue but it definitely is. Should I buy Lotto tickets tonight or go to Vegas for the weekend. $80 on Black #8 should take care of it huh?

Sigh.......... What to do, what to do??????

[SANfan]

Smells like a s*** sandwich to me.... Sorry, Hoss. I could suggest that you move to NC and ride with us, but I'm sure there are people much closer that will make you the same offer.

~$1700 actually sounds good to me for a rebuild, particulary from a reputable shop. Your exhaust manifolds are near new, and the other exposures would be the fuel and ignition systems. Expect to spend at least $300 over the rebuild cost by the time you get it all back into the boat. The upside is that taken care of, you should have a trouble-free ride for a while.

The long block will (should!) give you a new cam, lifters, valve rods, rockers, etc - pretty much everything new except intake, electrical, and fuel systems (and valve covers, brackets, etc.) Don't know if your rebuild people are including any of that, might want to check. I'm assuming you're responsible for removal / reinstallation in either case.

Good luck, John.

[Tranner]

Just got off Dania Marine Corp in Florida and here is what they said:

351 W (Standard Rotation) Brand New in the box with no core exhange for $2995 plus shipping to California. The long block comes with the following (which is stuff I probably need anyway):
Harmonic Balancer & pulley
Intake Manifold
Oil Pan
Valve Covers
PCV Valve with Hose
Circulating Pump
Timing Cover
Flywheel
Filter & Plugs

The guy was pretty cool and thinks 5-7 day ground delivery would be about $200.
What do you guys think keeping in mind that I need most of this stuff anyway and this is a brand new motor with no core exchange to deal with.

[SANfan]

Sounds like you'll be swapping distributor, carb, fuel pump, and associated wiring and tubing. If the boat really had 595 hours an the prev ownder didn't let it sit a lot with gas in the carb, you should be all right. I'd pull one of the float bowls and look for varnish to be sure. New points and condenser is a good idea as well, and I'd spring for all new hose clamps and a thermostat (paranoia again). Don't tempt the explosion god by trying to substitute automotive parts for electrical and fuel systems.

It's been awhile, but the 351's I used to work on had a hexagon rod connecting the distributor drive to the oil pump. if they're still like that it's reaaaaaaal easy to miss the oil pump and drop the rod into the pan. Use (very)sticky grease to hold the shaft in the distributor drive while you ease it into place, or use a parts retriever to insert it in the oil pump first. If you use the second mehod, put a dollop of gease on the bottom of the rod - there are few thrills comparable to missing one tooth on the timing and hearing *tink* when you try to correct it. I once pulled the pan on a Ford engine and found two rods in the bottom of the pan.... Unless you've done it before you'll need someone to show you how to set the timing anyhow, they should know.

Get some help with shaft alignment too, unless you have done it.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out. Look on the bright side: When you're done, you'll know your particular boat's systems better than a lot of mechanics do.....

Shutting up now,

Luke

[Rick]

The Long Block will defionately be faster. It took about 6 weeks for Speed Spec. That includes a new used block as we couldn't use the original as it was to badly pitted. I also had it balanced while there My total was 2032.50. For Carbs I use Dougs Carbs in San Marcos. He built a brand new Holly for me for around 450.00 I'm sure his rebuild would be reasonable.

[nms1991]

The motor is a right hand not standard rotation. The distributor will not work due to wrong direction of gear cut. also you will have to change the pump rotation on the trans, the circulating pump, the direction of the impellar pump, and the prop. I would recomend going with the rebuilder or a company like jasper with a national warranty for 18 months.

[Tranner]

Honestly, I know that "all" Nautiques are reverse/right hand rotation. However, I don't think my motor is the original one. It has Commander parts all over it like valve covers, exhaust manifolds, even the motor mounts all clearly say Commander on them.

Excuse my ignorance, but I have to explain and get the opinions of people who understand inboards. When I look at the motor, at the front looking at the pulleys, the crank shaft and pulley turn counter clockwise. I was under the impression that this is a left hand/standard rotation motor. If I stand at the back of the boat and look forward towards the bow, the bell housing of the tranny says "rotation" is clockwise and to the right.

That sure made me think it was a standard/left hand rotation motor but now I doubt myself seeing that you say it should be right hand/reverse.

[NorCalBFN]

I have a guy that will rebuild a short block for $1100, long block for about $1400. Price includes all new pistons, rings, magnaflux the block and crank, balance crank, hot tank it all, new gaskets, lifters, valves, etc, etc, etc... this price was for my 454 in my 89 Barefoot. I blew a head gasket after several other issues, got water in the cylinders and threw a rod creating a whole big mess. I just took my short block in today actually and found these guys to be the most reasonable, and they have been around since 1946, so they must be doing something right. let me know if you would like some info, I am in sacramento. I say you get your motor rebuilt instead of putting a new one in, that way you know everything has a place that it already fits into and you won't have to modify anything, plus the original motor keeps the value of your boat up. oh, and if you plan on keeping the boat in fresh water only, you don't need marine gaskets, they are made to withstand the salt, that will save you a few dimes also. good luck.

[Tranner]

Too bad I wouldn't have known about the rebuilder earlier. I ended up buying a reman long block from Jaspers Engines about two weeks ago. It took 3 full days to R&R and I'm not completely finished yet.

I'm still waiting on a new starter and thermostat housing which are expected to arrive this week. I cranked the motor over a couple days ago and it ran for about 20 seconds then I shut her off. I went back to check a few things, then tried to start it again and it wouldn't go. Guess what? The starter died. I knew it was going to die sooner or later so I guess it is better now than later.

All in all, this has been alot more work than I expected but quite a learning experience. I can honestly say that I could probably fix any minor problem (ie: belts, impellers, pumps, wiring) out on the water now.

[nms1991]

if you go with the standard rotation engine you will have to swap out the distributor because it is a reverse rotation engine in the boat and you will have to switch the pump around on the trans and impellar pump on the front of the engine also dont forget to switch the prop for a left hand rotation prop.

[tryan]

if you want that pile-o-cash to last, you need to break her in right. did you take a good peak at the cam? was it new or used? if the cam is new you need to start and run the motor at a couple grand for 20 minutes or so. ( count how many neighbors put up for sale signs on their house the next day.) then change the oil and filter.

you might smack the starter with a mallet while someone works the key. if you have fresh paint under the grounding lug....................

[Tranner]

nms1991, I did put a reverse rotation (rebuilt) so everything was just a swap over of parts.

tryan, the cams are new (per Jaspers Engines). So you are saying to hook the water up to the boat, start it, and put the throttle at 2000 RPM for 20 minutes, then change the oil/filter again? Shouldn't I do the first time I drop it in the water instead of at home in the driveway?

[tryan]

you need to break in the cam at high rpm for 20 minutes with non detergent oil. call jasper and see what they recommend.

i always change the oil and cut the filter open to look at the element.