Sales Domination

[skinautique]

Why is it that there are more Malibus and MasterCraft boats out there versus CC? Just kind of curious what others thoughts are.

[NautiqueJeff]

I've wondered about that too, and I can think of two possible causes. First, Correct Craft boats are more expensive. I'll admit though that the difference in price between our boats and others is decreasing. Second, and this might be isolated to my area, there aren't as many dealers around. There are ZERO dealers in my state (Virginia), and my closest dealer is over four hours away. Hmmm... Maybe I should open a dealership around here....

[Edwin]

Agree with Jeff -
1) CC is more expensive than Malibu across the board, just a tad more expensive than MC. Everyone places a different value on what something's worth to them. I happen to put build quality very high in the list of priorities, not all buyers are willing to pay for the "above and beyond" build quality of a CC.

2) Dealer network, or lack there of, is a big part of it. It's been my experience over the years that the CC dealers were MUCH less willing to get creative to close a deal.

3) Styling / accessories - Malibu and MC seem to be kicking it up a notch with boat styling, flashy gadgets, etc. Notice the new billet steering wheel on the Malibu, X series MC's (personally wouldn't be seen in it).

When you get to the big three, everyone builds a good boat. It can be debated for ever who's boat is betther than the other, but you'd be incorrect to say they other's boats are not up to par.

I'm going to ski behind a 216 next week. I've ridden in and driven one so far, very impressed. We'll see what it's like behind the boat, then comes the hardest part of all. Is it worth approx $20k more than my paid for Malibu with 150hrs on it.

[Hollywood]

Use the auto industry as an example. High end automobiles don't dominate the market. I'd like to see some sales data as to who's buying Malibus, MCs and CCs. I'd be willing to bet CC has the lowest first inboard owner than the rest. Since wakeboarding has taken over the watersports scene, I've noticed more common boaters getting inboards. These people aren't looking at top-dollar, high-end boats, they just want something to board behind. Sales in general, most people aren't going to buy a top of the line model of something they're not familiar with.

[Edwin]

Well put, HWood. As wakeboarding continues to grow in popularity, v-drive sales in generaly have benefitted. As I/O owners migrate to inboards, they're normally blown away by the gains in performance. Once they get to the inboard level, it justs take time for them to appreciate the differences among brands.

Funny you mention cars - I've told the CC dealer many times that the build quality of the CC reminds me of my Benz. The Benz is as solid today as when I picked it up 3+ years ago.

[Hollywood]

I/O owners migrate to inboards, they're normally blown away by the gains in performance. Once they get to the inboard level, it justs take time for them to appreciate the differences among brands..

Totally what I was trying to say.



the build quality of the CC reminds me of my Benz. The Benz is as solid today as when I picked it up 3+ years ago.

Benz, Rover, and Malibu

What's that childhood song again? "one of these things just doesn't belong here, one of these things just isn't the same...." what happened with the Bu?

Just kidding. You obviously know enough to make an intelligent decision on boat buying. We'll see how that boat is holding up in 3 years. It will be a true test of it's build quality, since I'm sure you will keep it ship-shape.

[Edwin]

I've tried on more than a few occassions to become a CC owner, all been a matter of $$.

First boat - 1998. Drove MC Prostar 190 Sammy Duvall, Malibu Response LX, Tige something (no local CC dealer at the time). Came down to the MC and Malibu, got a deal on the MC as a dealer was losing his franchise, $7500 cheaper than the Malibu.

1999 - new local CC dealer opens, test drive 1999 SNOB. Really, really wanted the boat, dealer wanted $18k to upgrade, couldn't justify the difference.

Spring 2000, wife and I have a child, need more room. Test drive CC Sport Nautique, Malibu Sunsetter LXi, MC Prostar 205. MC was getting replaced by the 209 but wouldn't arrive until the end of the year...didn't want to squeeze in a small boat for the entire season. Sport Nautiqe was nice, but was getting dated. Performance was decent, but a departure from my MC. Skied the Malibu, better wakes than my MC. It clearly had the best interior layout of the 3, best trunk design. Wasn't too happy with the fit and finish of the Malibu, but the other factors were pretty strong.

Deal time - all costs close to equal, I'd go CC. Similarly equipped boats, CC was $44k, Malibu was $34.5k. Just had a kid, needed more room in the car too so had to figure in the upgrade cost from the BMW to the Benz. Malibu wins.

2003 - 3 seasons into the Malibu, few issues since the initial list of items at the time of delivery. Once the bugs were worked out, been a great boat.
Fortunate to be able to afford it, might as well spend some cash and upgrade the boat. Next Monday will be water testing the 216 against my LXi. I'll ski them back to back, same number of passengers, same water, etc.

[SGY]

Edwin, good luck to you on your testing. I skied behind a 216 in June. Very nice boat with pretty good wake--about the same as my 99 SN Open Bow. I would say that the 216 wake was a little softer put perhaps a little bigger if that makes any sense. At the time, the 216 had two big guys in the boat and a couple kids. Also tha ballast tank was half full.

I myself am in a quandry. I really want the 206 but am struggling with upgrading and the cost $$$. Right now I'm looking at about $12,000 to go from my SNOB to a barely used 206. The SNOB is such a great boat and its in showroom condition with only 230 hours. It was alot easier to justify the expense in going from my 88 SN to the 99 SNOB. Now that was an upgrade in wake quality. Here I'm just getting a nicer and bigger boat for the family.

Good luck.

Steve.

[Edwin]

SGY - the first of the new generation CC's we tried was the 206. It skiied great, but we can't afford to lose the space. The rear trunk was the killer - since my 68" ski won't fit there, you start having to look elsewhere. 90% of the time we use our boat, we put in first thing in the am, don't take out until late afternoon. We do have a place in SW Missouri with a boat lift, more trips out on the lake of shorter duration with fewer people.

My upgrade is similar to yours - if I want the new boat it's gonna cost. I have a buyer for my boat at $28.5k, new one is gonna cost somewhere around $46k out the door. Kinda tough to swallow...

[Edwin]

Based on Registration data from 42 states, representing 93 percent of the US market, as compiled and published by Statistical Surveys Inc., of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

2003 YTD Sales Market Share

Malibu 1355 24.9
Mastercraft 1301 23.9
Skiers Choice 790 14.5
Correct Craft 747 13.7
Centurion 401 7.4

[skinautique]

i think the hardest part is the money factor. I know that MC has told dealers to do whatever it takes to make a sale. If they lose money, MC will reimburse that lost money. They do this to gain market share. CC won't do this but they need to do something along these lines for a little while. Malibus are just less expensive due to components and construction techniques. If people had a better idea of how these boats are manufactured versus the others, I think they would be rather shocked. CC does a lot of behind the scenes things that others don't do but the consumer doesn't see that either. They just learn about it 10 and 15 years down the road.

[Edwin]

Malibus are just less expensive due to components and construction techniques.

I agree to a point, but there's more to the story. I toured the manufacturing facility in TN as my boat was being built and have watched the CC videos of their process. The techniques may differ some but the build process is not that different. Again, I'll agree that some of the components on a CC are a step above. That said, I strongly question if the components and construction techniques are the worth the entire added premium in the price.

When my dealer opened and picked up CC, they were offering a whopping $1500 off MSRP. It took a few years of slow sales to realize that they'd have to discount the boats to move units. They've since gotten much more aggressive in pricing and have reaped the benefits with a vast improvement in sales.

When I first looked at CC with them in 1999, they were over $18k higher than Malibu. That difference is now approx $7k, much more in line with what I'm willing to pay.

[skinautique]

http://www.moomba.com/images/subpages/03sales.gif

Just to back up my last comment about MC and them gaining market share.

[882001]

what is a skiers choice?

[MarkP]

That's Supra & Moomba!! What do you guys think about CC putting
territories on their dealers??

[Edwin]

Was fortunate enough to get to test drive and ski behind an 04 Sport 216 this evening. To do a real world comparison, I brought my 01 Malibu Sunsetter LXi along to drop in the water and ski immediately after the 216. Here were my thoughts:
Styling / interior design- It's obvious that the fit and finish of the 216 far exceeds my LXi. The layouts are very similar (makes me wonder what boat CC was modeling the 216 after :lol: ). My LXi has storage under two of the 3 back jump seats, the observer seat on the LXi opens with the seat back, then the bottom removes. I question if the 216 observer seat will open completely if a bimini top is installed. Might be an issue. The 216 observer seat is a seat and half (maybe), the LXi is a full two seater. Walk thru space from observer to motor box is more open on the 216, but either boat will require observers to move their legs to allow passengers by. Trunk is larger on the LXi, might be easier for smaller people to get things out of as it's not as deep as the 216. 216 trunk looks like it will hold a ton of stuff, but will require piling things on top of one another. Overall - I could go either way here, but the CC fit and finish is outstanding.

Holeshot performance - 2 adults, 1 child on board - holeshot was great behind the 216. Actually, exceeded my expectations (330hp Excalibur motor). This has been a beef with my LXi (325hp Monsoon motor), but has recently been fixed with a bit of prop work tweaking the stock 13x14 OJ 4 blade into a 13x12. Overall - the nod goes to the 216.

Handling - slow speeds such as docking, loading on trailer, picking up a skier, the LXi is hands down better here. The dealer readily admitted that the slow speed manuvering was not as good as smaller CC's.
- skiing speeds - CC was slower to turn, req'd a much more deliberate attempt at making the boat change directions. Not bad at all, just different. LXi on the other hand has the steering wheel feel of a 96 Crown Victoria and changes direction very easily. It turns sharper, faster, and stayed flatter in the turns than the 216.
Overall, no question the LXi is better here.

Wake quality at skiing speeds - skied 30mph, 15 off for the wife, 15, 22, and 28 off at 34mph for me. 216 at 30mph is not it's strong suit. At 30mph, the boat has not lifted out of the water completely resulting in a big hump in the middle. I had no issues zipping across it, but a non-edged ski will launch. On the other hand, the LXi is very nice at this speed. Much smaller, no where as turbulent as the 216.

Bumping the speed at 15 off helped tremendously, much better but still a decent bump. 22 off at 34 has you right in the rooster tails...keep the ski on edge and it's not too big of a problem. Non-edged and the ski took to the air. 28 off was great, no reason to think shorter than 28 would be anything less than ideal. At 34 mph, I'd say the difference between the two was even more noticeable. There's just not that much there behind my LXi, especially at 22 and 28 (where I happen to ski the most)
If I were the only one to ski behind the boat, I'd say the 216 wakes would be fine. However, since we normally ski as a family, the less skilled skiers need every bit of assistance they can get. To compare the two, the LXi wins this part hands down.

Tracking - wife commented that the 216 tracked better than the LXi, rarely even felt a pull even into 28 off. This isn't the case for our LXi as I do have to fight powerful skiers a bit. 216 it is, no questions asked.

This was the best test drive I've ever been on...truly helped me make my decision and won't think twice about it. Being able to drive / ski the two boats back to back is the way to do it, at least for me. The differences between the two are readily apparent. I was hesitant about the 216's slalom wakes after watching the Waterski magazine video - the CC marketing guy basically recognizes that the 216 is targeted toward the wakeboarder who also skis a bit. I have to say I agree with him - this boat is no where as slalom focused as the the 206. Given that we ski 95% of the time, I think I'll stick with my LXi.

[Hollywood]

Edwin, kick *** review.

[Edwin]

Thanks for the positive feedback HWood. I truly wanted the 216 to be "the" boat for me. It's an easy fix - buy a 206. Down side is that I'll have to alter our boating habits and not take day trips as often, decreasing the importance of storage. If I buy a place on a lake, the storage issue becomes a moot point.

[get6]

i agree with hw....excellent review, edwin. out of curiosity, how would you compare the ski-ability of the 206 against your lxi and against the 216, if you can remember, at 30 mph for your wife and at 34 mph at 15/22/28 for you? i have about convinced myself to sell my 95 sport, which has been bulletproof, and buy a 196 since we ski the course at a small lake 95% of the time. although my kids might like the 206 a little better, i am concerned about it being a half step inferior to the 196 for the slalom course. thanks again!

[Edwin]

Get6- if the 206 would accept my ski in the rear locker, I'd order one today. The 30mph 206 wakes were not as smooth as my LXi, but they were soft. 34mph, 15 /22 off 206 are outstanding, 28off had a noticeable bump. Didn't ski anything shorter than 28 off behind the 206.

Ways the 206 is better than the 216 - wakes are smaller at all line lengths I skied, more nimble driving, a tad snappier out of the hole (weighs a bunch less), cheaper than the 216.

216 over the 206 - rear trunk that can handle a full size ski (not everyone can ski on a 66" ski), uh, uh, guess that's it.

It's been interesting to compare the CC and Malibu. The hull design of the CC puts much more boat in the water (helping tracking), added strength in pull is noticeable (very strong pull, don't seem to slow the boat down at all behind the CC). Chop the power on the 206 and it drops in the water fast. 216 takes a bit longer, my LXi seems to glide for ever. That smoother hull design of the Malibu is noticeable right behind the boat (you can see the entire transom while skiing, CC has a lot of turbulent water coming out behind the boat).

I haven't skied behind the 196, can't comment there. IMHO, you'd be hard pressed to have a beef with the 206.

[SGY]

Edwin. Very nice review. You have to be a man of conviction and discipline not to convince yourself to buy a new toy. Well done.

I too would like to read your comparision of the 216 and 206.

I've heard numerous different comparisons between the 206 and the 196. Several people have told me that the 206 skis exactly the same. Andy Mapple responded to my email saying that the 206 wake is "different" from the 196 wake at 15 and 22 off. He did not say it was inferior, just different. Others have told me that from 28 off and beyond there is no difference but at 15 and 22 off the wake is a "bit" bigger--similar to the Malibu and MC wakes.

Finally a CC representative told me that the 196 is their premiere ski boat and has wakes at long lines that are a bit better than the long line wake behind the 206. But the CC representative told me that I would be pleasently surprised comparing the 206 wake to my 99 SNOB wake--smaller and softer at all line lengths.

I'm trying to arrange a demo next week in Orlando and will see for myself.

[get6]

sgy..thanks for the info and please let us know how your 196 demo goes. i am very interested in your impressions. your comments are consistent with what i have heard about the 196 vs 206 comparison. similar at 28 and beyond but the 196 is a little better at 15 and 22. both in real terms are probably very acceptable, tho.

edwin...dunno your current career, but you have a calling as a boat tester for waterski magazine! thanks again for the info. i agree that it is insane that a 67 inch ski won't fit in the 196/206 rear locker. i have a 67 inch goode that i am all but certain won't fit. it is not such a big issue for me because we ski on a small lake, but for folks like you it seems to make the rear locker nearly completely wasted (or at best suboptimal) space. curious why they did not give the locker another inch or two. there is room to do so.

btw..i am guessing both the 196 and the 206 without some additional weight or passengers are really amateur hour for wakeboarding wakes. if you load them up, they are probably ok, though.

[Edwin]

SGY - have to agree w/ the CC rep. Last Nautique I tested before this generation was the TSC hull, 99 SNOB. Great skiing boat, 206 is as good, if not better. Having a small child, the climb over dash wouldn't work. Can't count the number of trips back and forth the little ones make during a day. Maybe they'd stay put a bit better in a playpen design, but I haven't found a kid yet that stays content when they're confined. For me, content kids mean more time on the water.

Get6 - asked the same question, as it's unlikely that a majority of full sized adults slalom on a 66". Comment has been made by the dealer that the 206 is identical to the 196, just chop it in half and add a foot or so in length. A bit longer spray pocket here, a bit longer XXXX here, the result out the back is going to be a bit different. I'd strongly recommend a test ski behind the 206...it's a great ski boat.

I appreciate the kind words about the boat review - two comments. 1) Boat reviewers at Waterski have to worry about ad sales for the upcoming issue. Given that, it will be a cold day in h*ll before you see a honest, gut feeling kind of a review out of them. Too bad, but ads keep their magazine alive. 2) I'd love to do this for a living, however I've become accustomed to the current lifestyle I live. I hate to even think of the response from the wife when I told her the Benz, Rover, and house had to go...I'm (we're, sh's a domestic engineer) becoming a writer. I work my tail off to afford the nicer things, getting to share the experiences with great folks on a site like this is gratifying in itself.

To be honest, the worst part of this whole process has been letting the dealer know I'll have to pass on the 216. The guys at (shameless plug) Extreme Power Sports www.extremepowersports.com have been nothing short of awesome to deal with. They are the epitomy of what you want in a dealer - there to sell / service boats because they love the sport. Yeah, they'd like to make a few $$ at it, but it's obvious that the $$ is not the driving factor in the sales process. I hope to be able to buy a boat from them some day...
Edwin

[get6]

edwin - i will give the 206 a ride, hopefully at the same time as a 196 so as to do the type of comparison you did. thanks again. i am with on the lifestyle implication of a job change to a writer. at my home, my guess is i would get the boot before she would move to a different house because i wanted to take a lifestyle job. in any event, i found your review concise and insightful and think you may be a natural reviewer, if not for profit, then for fun and the benefit of the rest of us!

punched up the extreme power sports website. they look like good guys. i only wish they were closer than 2000 miles.

[skinautique]

Edwin, Just out of curiousity, is the trunk the only real issue for you? If so, what is the problem with the storage under the passenger seat? If that is settled, just go with a 206 and have a blast! By the way, don't look at the wake behind any of the newer Nautiques. Yes it looks ugly with all of the turbulence. But in reality, everything that is white and foamy looking is all soft. Anyways, thanks for the review!

[Edwin]

SN - the trunk is the main issue for me. I'll do some digging and see if I can utilitze the storage space in the port gunwhale for my ski.

Mrs. Edwin likes the bigger boat ride of our LXi. The LXi rides pretty well in decent chop, the 206 rode much more like a full bore comp boat. I think I should be able to over come that objection with the wife, need to make sure the timing is appropriate. Her other objection revolves around the depth of the bow seating area. She's worried that the low freeboard in the nose will be dangerous for kids. Again, easy to overcome as all bow passengers need to stay seated when we're underway (boat rule).

[skinautique]

Kind of shocked about the chop comment. I beat the snot out of a 206 and a 216 and was very surprised with how well they rode in the chop. But everyone is on a different lake with different chop. :)

[Edwin]

She's got no issue what so ever with the 216 ride quality...as good as the LXi, feels even better given the rock solid construction. The 206 felt more like out MC Prostar 190 in the chop. She's spoiled, but we just had a talk at dinner. Being a salesperson by trade, this is not a problem, but minor irritation. I'll get my CC at some point in time. Worst case scenario, I'll order a 206 and just happen to bring it home one day. That's what I did when I bought her a Range Rover...she didn't seem to mind.

[SGY]

Edwin, it's always later than you think. Get that 206 now.

I'll be in Orlando on Monday and will test the 206 with Jeff Warner. I have to say that Jeff is a great guy--always there with the infomration I need. And, now, with less than a week's notice he has set up my test ride/ski. That is what makes a customer come back again and again.

I'll post my thoughts Tuesday.

Steve.

[thutch]

I have questioned my dealership on this issue and the lack of Nautiques (CC) on the local waterways. From what I get, CC isn't real worried about increasing market share as they are maintaining Quality and Maintaining Market share. If they increase market share too much, they may sacrifice quality, and they are not willing to do that... Well, not exactly what was said, but the idea I got from the conversation..

The owner also quoted me some figures of incomes of each boat owner. Apparently, the average Nautique owner is very well off. He also gave me the Rolls Royce example.. Rolls doesn’t sell as many cars, but do they care?”

for the record and the way this conversation is going.. I went from a 15' tri-hull(bought while in college for 1500 bucks) - to a 90 ski Nautique(graduation present to self).. and most recently just got a 03 Super Air.. Cost defiantly was a consideration, but after doing the numbers, I based my decision on wanting the best boat (SAN has the best wake) most convenience (no need to add sacks beyond the factory tanks and a little lead) and resale.. It will cost about 5K a year to own the boat, hopefully a little less with the treatment it receives. I also am paying for luxury and satisfaction... I know (at least in mind, which is the only thing that counts to me) I have the best boat and I have some of the amenities that others do not..

[Edwin]

Interesting perspective thutch. I agree to a point, but there's a downside of that view. If the dealers can't sell enough boats to keep the numbers in the black, they'll cease to exist. My local dealer is in year 3 or 4 of selling CC. Prior to them, CC would move from dealer to dealer every 2-3 years.

I understand paying a premium for a best in class product, but the premium requested in years past has been too much. I've kept records of the deals my dealer was willing to make over the years - it appears they've chosen to adapt (become more price competitive) and thus, continue to exist. I believe he mentioned selling 30+ boats this year, both CC and Skier's Choice boats.

[JJ]

Edwin and SGY,
My 206 is still for sale. Here is a chance to get a 206 Limited and save thousands from the cost of a new boat. You are more than welcome to come over and test drive and ski the boat. I am very motivated to sell this boat.

This boat does not have a single mark on it. Just to give you any idea on how the boat is cared for I added a pic of it hanging in my garage to my photo gallery. This shows how I can completely clean and wax the hull. Email me and we can discuss price.

http://nautique.webkitchen.net/phpBB2/album_pic.php?pic_id=103

[AbunDiga909]

First of all, JJ, i love the way you keep your boat...looks awesome! esp when its clean... anyway...i agree with everybody about how CC's are pretty much the top of the line and most expensive, but i also have to say that MC and Malibu are pulling ahead with their tower designs and tower accessories. They seem more appealing to the 20 yr old wakeboarder who wants what looks coolest oppose to how it handles. That's where i think CC is falling behind...styling. however, in the recent years, they are pulling ahead, however so is MC and malibu, but CC is closing the gap. I have to be frank, even though the new tower on the 216 and 206 looks real stylish, the coolest one i've seen is on the new X-Star by MC with the fork bow. The tower had lights, speakers, and everything. very very stylish. i think CC can beat that, but they need to put in some money and effort. Cancling the deal with NVert isn't helping. So i partially think styling is selling MC's and Malibu's more for the wakeboard market, but for the family market and other pros who know their boats, CC has those customers. Our local dealer is on a huge lake (Candlewood Lake) and he owns the lake with CC's. CC left and right. CC must keep the price in mind when selling their boats however...
~Austin E.

[skinautique]

CC backed out of the deal with NVert because they couldn't provide them with enough units. The 206 and 216 did not get a new tower. The only tower that is new (kind of) is the 210. The 226 has changed a little bit too. It is a combo of the spider tower and the 210 tower

[AbunDiga909]

i agree, but if you look real real closely (cuz i have nothing better to do with my time...) you will notice that starting in 03, the windshield is slanted more only on the new 206 and 216. in addition, the tower for those boats are slightly slanted, i just think it makes it look a lot better.'
~Austin E.

[SGY]

CC was good enough to let me ski behind a 206 on Monday while in Orlando on business. My goal was to compare the 206 to my 99 SNOB.

First, the fit and finish of the boat is outstanding. It also handles excellent. I'm continually amazed how much better the newer boats are than even a 4 year old boat like my 99 SNOB. Comparing exterior, interior and driving, the 206 is way better--as expected.

As far as skiing, I first skied with the full 75 foot line. At both 28 mph and 30 mph it has a pretty good hump. In comparing this to my 99 SNOB, I would say that the 206 is a little cleaner and easier to cross. Behind the 206 there is a hump, behind my SNOB, there are two large wakes.

At 15 off at 28mph, the wake improves drastically. I would say that it is about the same, maybe a little bigger than my SNOB--but slightly softer. As you go up in speed to 30 and then 32 the wake improves to the point that at 32 its about the same as my SNOB if not a little better. I did not go faster because I'm still struggling at running the course at 30mph.

At 22 off I have to say that there is a pretty good bump as you exit the wake going from skier left to right. This was at 30 mph. I don't know what the wake at 22 off at 30 mph is like behind my boat since I still struggling at 15 off. I hope to ski today behind my boat and I'll put it at 22 off to compare.

In speaking with others "in the know", I understand that the 206 really starts to get better as you increase the speed. 32 mph is good but the wakes really shrink and soften at 34mph. According to one CC representative, the higher speed lifts the boat out of the water. Sounds similar to Edwin's impressions of the 216. The 196 has the advantage because its smaller and weighs less.

My hesitation is the bump at 22 off. Is this the kind of bump I can expect behind any ski boat? In other words, is there something wrong with the 206 that will be fixed in the next couple of years--kind of like the Infinity boat? I don't want to buy the 206 now and see that CC comes out with something drastically better in a year or so. (I always hesitate to buy the first year run of a new model.) If I buy this boat now, I can guarantee that my wife will shoot me if I try to buy a new boat in a year or two.

Any thoughts?

[AbunDiga909]

SGY...do you wakeboard??? or any other sport that needs a large wake? Cuz if not, then you may wanna consider the 196...but then again the 206 has the nice bow and can hold 3 more people. I skyski and slalom, but not as much. So we are considering teh 216. What do you know about that wake? I here it's supposed to be good. not like 196 good, but nice for a "conversion" boat as i like to call it. I can do the mini course at about 29-30 mph at 15 off on our 82 Ski Nautique. I now go faster cuz the wake started to get smaller at that speed too. How do you think it would compare or how i would do on a 216...is it adequate??? We would be getting the 210 if i didn't slalom. Back to the point....I hear great things about the 206...it cant be that bad...
~Austin E.

[SGY]

I wakeboard perhaps once a year. And, while my kids do wakeboard, we are still a slalom family and want a slalom boat. I agree the 196 is the best--that's why I have the 99 SNOB. I'm really not into a crossover boat. Crossover means to me that it does two things ok, but not great. I'd rather have a boat that does one thing great and tell my kids that we can buy a wakeboard boat when they can help pay for it.

With all that said, I am hoping that the 206 will be the boat for me--but don't want to compromise too much with the wake quallity. I didn't mean to give the impression that I didn't like the boat. I loved it--no question. The issue is whether it is a net gain over what I have today to justify the expense at this time. If I didn't already have the SNOB, I would have bought the 206 already.

I skied behind the 216 and it was fine--not as good as the 206 but certainly adequate as a crossover boat. (See Edwin's review above which I agree with.) I didn't spend too much time behind the 216 as there was a large line of people waiting, but if I had to speculate I would say that the 206 wakes are a little better simply because of the boat size. It takes more speed to get the 216 to unhook at the rear than the 206. But again, I'm just speculating. By the way, my son loved the wake for boarding.

Good luck.

Take care,

[882001]

hey abundagga. i will agree that the new mc and malibus look pretty cool now, while the tribal stuff is in style, but what about in 5 years when it is not in style anymore. its gonna look like crap and outdated. just like the stars and stripes look now. older nautiques have a classic style. older mc and malibus just look old. im sure people said the same thing about the eurof3 when it came out with the miami vice looking writing on the side. yeah its a real looker now. JUNK!!

[AbunDiga909]

I agree that CC will sell more boats in the long run.... However, i also think that there are some old boats that do look classic becided CC, however, our old 82 ski Nautique looks very classic. SGY...do you think that the 216 is better than our 82 Ski Nautique? Was the slalom wake really bad or was it bad compared to the 206. cuz i would imagine that since its based on the twc2 hull that it would have to have at least a decent wake for slaloming...I'm just trying to confirm that that boat is the right one for us. i'm not a hardcore slalomer, but i'd like to have a nice wake, otherwise we might as well go with the 210. and vise versa. if it doesn't have such a nice wakeboard wake, i dunno what we should get...but fromwhat you say, it has a nice wake.
p.s. has anyone heard anything on the new ballast tanks for the 04 216? i hear they are supposed to have more storage? anyone have any news on them? thanks again.
~Austin E.

[SGY]

I had a 1988 2001. Great boat but no comparison in any way shape or form to the 216. The 216 has a much better wake at all line lengths than the 2001 model. And, the 216 wakes were not bad at all--even compared to the 206.

If you want to slalom and wakeboard, the 216 is a great choice.

[AbunDiga909]

Thanks SGY...That really helps....cuz those are just the answers i'm looking for! We found an 03 for a great deal.... but its about 18 hrs away...we would meet the dealer half way however...except...i like the new staro controls in the help. the new kicker upgrade..like tweeters and sub..but that is not as important. also. it has nvert wakeboard racks. since they drill the holes to put them in..and we would wanna take them out...there would be holes in the tower and that would not look that attractive...but those are minor things...however...i hear thta the 04 has a new ballast system that will allow for more storage. it was very surprisign to us taht we couldn't fit in a 68" ski in the back flatly. we had to lie it on its side and it would be diagonal...even then it wsa tight and i think that after a while the fin esp would start to rip the rug...and it also eliminates the amount of good storage for anything else...will the new ballast system elimate this problem???
~Austin E.

[skinautique]

Edwin,
I saw your post on MBO about the 04 lxi and the issues on it. Does it make you wonder what else they may have "slapped" together behind the scenes? I also don't see why they would have different quality requirements between tn and ca? You would think that all of them should have to pass the same test out of each plant. Just curious what your thoughts are there.

[Edwin]

SN - absolutely, makes me wonder. If they slap the finishing touches together w/o much care, who knows what lies beneath the surface. As best I'm aware, the CA and TN plants have the same build process. Some on MBO have commented that that hasn't always been the case...can't confirm nor deny.

That said, taking a quick read at the mechanical forum here shows that CC isn't immune to issues either. I've read about LCS helm contols that weren't hooked up to anything, keyless ignitions that just shut off for no reason, recalls for fins, coil wires, some impellers have not been taking a prime, bow lifting rings were an issue on selected boats, 2002 ski nautique's for screws coming too close to the gas tank because they were too long, etc. I've also witnessed my dealer working on the electric hatch release that doesn't work, keyless ignition systems that don't function as promised. Don't have any idea how many issues were caused due to careless assembly, but I'd wager good $$$ that Jeff's 03 SAN helm controls hadn't been hooked up since day one.

I've readily admitted here that the fit and finish of the CC is superior to my Malibu, but ALL manufacturers are going to have some issues. Maybe I was looking at an early 04 model? No excuse in my book, but could be the case.

On the positive side, the 04 Response LXi will accept 2 full size slalom skis in the trunk. Oh, and the in floor ski locker will actually accept skis as well. When we demo'd the 206, you couldn't fit a full size ski in the in-floor locker. The observers seat is 33" wide, easily handling two passengers.

[M3Fan]

Just thought I'd mention, JJ, if that boat dropped, I'd immediately fall upon a sword. Not that it would, but it just hanging there looks so precarious! I don't know if I could do that without water underneath. Cool pic.

[skinautique]

Edwin,
I hear you on the recalls but most of them could be done when the boat was winterized so that isn't too bad in my opinion. The impeller (now fixed) would be a pain to people. On a side note, did you see that PCM got the JD Powers award for the best engine performance, quality, etc.
Check it out at www.pleasurecraft.com

[SprintCar39]

And just wait to hear what JD Powers has to say about Correct Craft. :D

[Edwin]

I noticed that JD Powers did recognized CC last year as the best in the inboard lines, hadn't seen the info on PCM. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.
Question though - besides CC and MB, who in the inboard towboat industry uses PCM? As I see it, the breakdown is:
Calabria - Mercruiser
Centurion - Mercruiser
CC - PCM
Gekko - Mercruiser or PCM
Malibu - Indmar
Mastercraft - Indmar
MB - PCM
Sanger - Mercruiser
Skier's Choice - Indmar
Ski Supreme - Mercruiser
Tige - Mercruiser

Last numbers I saw for market share, Indmar powers over over 63% of the tow boat market, compared to just over 14% for PCM. No question it's a great product, however they have a much smaller customer base to keep happy.
I worked with Acura cars back in the late 80's, early 90's. They were #1 in JD Powers in the early 90's, but they had a fraction of the cars on the road compared to Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. We saw 10 cars a day in for service, the others saw a hundred. Still a huge accomplishment none the less.

[skinautique]

some of the tige's have them, and some of the supras, and infinity used them.

[SprintCar39]

I was not aware that Malibu used PCM ????

I was talking about the new JD Power awards for this year...GREAT NEWS!

Although that wont surprise most of us. LOL

[M3Fan]

I think he said MB uses PCM- As in MB Sports, not Malibu.

[SprintCar39]

My mistake...I misread the post...I took MB to mean Malibu and not MB boats...sorry. :oops:

[Edwin]

Sorry - I'll try to make it more clear next time :wink:

Ok - then you can claim Gekko as well. Fact is, find me a Tige or Supra for sale on flipsell, boat trader, etc. that has a PCM in it. Infinity - well, last I heard they are no more.

They sell FAR fewer motor solutions than Indmar in towboats.

[skinautique]

I have a tige for you: Chris Rossi's 04 Switch I, Supra Launch 2001 I have seen those with PCM in there. I agree with you that Indmar has their engines in more boats. No denying that one.

[Edwin]

Enjoy the awards, they are tough to come by. No need for further outside input from me, I'm signing out. Enjoy your CC's...

[Hollywood]

I'm guessing Hydrodyne uses Mercruiser too. Come to think of it, I completely forgot about them, we have about 5 inboard Hydrodynes on my lake.

[SprintCar39]

We started selling TIGE boats about six months ago. Out of the 10 2004 models we have half of them with the PCM. The rest of them have the Tige GM Vortec 5.7L MPI EFI.