Mission Bay Slalom Course San Diego

[Rick]

I was just at the boat show and stopped by the Discover Boating booth. I asked if anyone knew about the course in Mission Bay. A woman named Kay Goodfellow said that she was President of the club that maintains it. It is the San Diego Missioin Bay Boat and Ski Team. Their web site is www.SDMBBST.net. She says to use the course you must belong to an AWSA sanctioned club and be an AWSA member. She says dues in their club is $45 per year and all the money goes to maintainance of the course.

[skinautique]

Looks like a really nice place to ski!

[Gramps]

To use the course all you need is to belong to USA Waterski Association, it is a $25 membership fee.

The SDMBBST wants you to join their organization to use your money to maintain a PUBLIC course, the SDMBBDT thinks it is THEIR course.

Ask any wakeboarder how they are treated by members of the Association. The skiers try to dominate the course they suck up all the weekend passes. I have been at the course in the past and had a ski members dog jump in my boat and urinate. When I approached the dog owner they simply said "It's my turn to make passes, I will be back in 10 minutes" No sorry, No I will clean it up, No I will tie up my dog, NOTHING.

To use the course you need a permit, they give out permits 7 days in advance of the day you attempt to use the course. If you have 4 friends that have access to the course and get all 4 passes the skiers will still attempt to use it in the morning before you get there. They will give you a hard time even though you have a permit and they don't. The skiers also regularly take passes WITHOUT a 3rd in the boat which in the state of California is ILLEGAL, they get all the permits and then put 4 boats in the water and only use 1 to make passes.

The course is nice from sunrise to noon in the summer and almost all day long in the winter. If you are willing to put your boat in the salt the course is the way to go for sure. Just be sure to have your pass and don't take any crap from the ski members.

They will also try to throw out the "I have a wildcard" trump card, they think they have this mystical card that only the ski members know about that lets them use the course even though the city is the group that controls the permits. The city only allows 4 boats per 6 hour session, but the skiers will try to weasal their way onto the course.

If you join the SDMBBST you will be charged $45 and then still have to join USA waterski association. Save the $45 and just help them out when they have a "work party" to maintain the dock.

The dock has picnic benches, places to hang your boards, a BBQ and a nice area to just hang out.

Good luck

[Rick]

Gramps. My understanding is that the permits are issues by the lifeguards at the
Quivera basin main station. I still thought that you have to be a member of a club, any club is that not the case? Its also my understanding that the city does not maintain the course, but its the ski club that does.

[Gramps]

Yes you are correct the lifeguard station at Quivera is where you get permits.

You only need to be a member of USA Waterski Association to obtain a permit, it will save you a few bucks if you join USA.

The city patrols the area the club maintains the dock.

The club does not like anybody from the outside using the course, meaning if you are not a member they don't like you using the course even though the rules at the lifeguard station clearly read, "To obtain a permit you must be a member of USA Water-ski Association" The club wants your $$ to fund their trips to tournaments outside the area.

We were told the same thing, the money would be used to maintain the dock each year........

Yet in 2 years we didn't see any new improvements......no new carpet, no new benches, no new BBQ, no new nothing!!!!!

They use the money to pay for members to travel to tournaments at other clubs outside the area, for entry fees, hotel fees and gas money.

Do yourself a favor and join USA.

Good luck, Gramps

[GS]

Gramps,

Sorry to hear of your bad experiences with the Mission Bay ski club. There are 100+ members in the club and they’re not all perfect, so you’re bound to get some skiers that act like they own the place. I’ve been a member for 8 years and I try my best to be inclusive of the non-slalom crowd. We are all out there trying to have fun and need to be respectful of each other. After hearing your story, I can see why you’re turned off. I apologize on behalf of the club, that behavior doesn’t reflect what our club is about!

Regarding the club dues…the $45/year is a bargain. Most of that money goes towards the dock, buoys, magnets, rubbers, the breakwater, the jump ramp. Of course we have some social events too. As for maintenance, this past October, we replaced 9 floats on the dock and the carpet was replaced in summer ’03. The ramp was out all last winter because the side curtain broke. We probably go through 5 buoys and 1 magnet per month. Keep in mind, all of this costs money and all of the labor is totally voluntary by club members. I realize if you’re not using the slalom course or the jump, then this seems like a waste of money to you. That’s cool, I can’t blame you, and you’re entitled to that opinion. If you want the money allocated differently, join the club and you’ll have a vote as to how it gets spent. I think a BBQ is a great idea. We need to get people like yourself involved in order to chart the course the club takes. Otherwise it’ll turn into a group of slalom snobs. I assure you that the a-holes are in the minority—but since they tend to have higher visibility, it skews your perception.

Regarding the tournaments…I’ve been the tournament chairman for the past 2 years. The tournaments we hold on the bay pay for themselves with entry fees and the outside the area tournaments are paid for by USA waterski directly. Our club is involved in a tournament series called NSL. Once a year they have a “Pro-Am challenge” where they invite the top skiers from around the country. There is a travel stipend of $200 and they pay for the hotel, but our clubs kicks in no money—I know this because I attended this event 2 summers ago, and didn’t get a dime. Even the prizes we offer for the end-of-year Grand Prix party are donated by the local ski shops: Wakesports and (formerly) Waterski World, and some from USA Waterski.


Rick,

Hope you give us a chance. It’s true, to use the area, you must have a USA waterski affiliation. This is for insurance reasons, not by our club’s rule. If you use the course, the dock, the jump, etc… Then we do hope you join the club for an additional $45/yr.

Keep in mind, the club is run BY it’s members, FOR it’s members. Get involved and then you’ll have no one to blame but yourself : )

Geoff Schmid

[Gramps]

Geoff, It is unfortunate since I actually know a few long standing members of the club.

The old saying goes "A few bad apples spoil the bunch" is true and unfortunate in this case.

The same people seem to be the majority of who use the course day in and day out. It was just a battle to use the course when we had as much right to use it as the club members do.

It is THE clubs choice to maintain the course and dock and it is appreciated, but it shouldn't be to the point that others are badgered, harrassed and basically abused to the point of confrontation.

The wakeboarders have no problem pitching in manhours and labor to help maintain the course and dock, some of us are certified divers and more than willing to help out when needed.

Dean Cherry and I spoke at length about the issues I have written about above. Unfortunately it was never resolved.

The course is PUBLIC, the permits are controlled by the CITY, if we abide by the rules we have as much right to the course, dock and all the surrounding areas as everyone else.

While waiting at the lifeguard tower for permits we were given a hard time by some of the "regulars" that use the course.

We had a BBQ planned for a Sunday and they took the BBQ home on a Saturday for no apparent reason than to keep us from using it. They showed up knowing we had all 4 passes, they made passes making us wait when they didn't have a permit, then when leaving they decided to do a few donuts at the end of the course sending rollers down the course making us again wait, pretty petty in my opinion.

So yes I am turned off by the club and what it stands for, yes I am still in disgust over having a dog running lose urinate in my boat with no remorse from the owner, yes I don't like being interogated for my permit when I answer "yes I have a permit" you can spin it however you want but some of the skiers in your so called club are giving it a bad reputation in the San Diego area with local wakeboarders.

Yes I do know there are two sides of every story and the skiers may have had a bad experience with other local wakeboarders. I know out of courtesy you should drop on the dockside of the course so as not to beat up the dock and other boats that are tied up.

I think most of the members know me or have heard of me and know that I try to set a good example for the rest of the wakeboarding community. I also think that our sport is growing leaps and bounds and water is hard to come by so over the long haul we will all be sharing the same precious waterways and need to get along.

Aki Savage

[MARK-S]

Without the club there would be no dock, no course, no BBQ. Join the club and get over it. Put your money where your mouth is. I had a course on a small lake in Minn. I would come out there and there would be no balls left. We would put it back together and 2 days laterit would be trashed. It takes time and money to maintain this thing. I was kicked off the lake because of wakeboarders. They would roll back and forth along the course sending huge roller at the shoreline, which upset the land owner due to dock and shoreline probs. Now I cant ski there, but they can board all they want. If they would have run n-s and not E-W with the course, we would both still be there. I never had problems with the boarders, they always took turns with us, they just upset the landowners with rollers.

[Gramps]

Mark, "get over what?"

The course is a deginated wakeboard/waterski area with the city of San Diego, if the club does not exist the course still does. No buoys no problem I don't use them anyways, no BBQ no problem we simply BBQ from the beach, no dock....no problem again we just use the beach.

If you had no problems with the boarders why were YOU kicked off the lake and they allowed to still ride?

Join the darkside.........water-skiing is a fading uptight sport......

[skiinxs]

Help me out here, If you don't care about the bouys, that must mean that you don't use the course. If you don't use the course, why are you concerned about getting permits to use the course? Is that the only water around to ski or board? (I am not familiar with the area, if that is the only water I understand why you want to use it)

[Rick]

I beleive that boarders and skiers can coexist. The problem that presents itself is that the best water is ususlly where there is a course. The biggest problem I have as a skier is that there is only 2 courses in all of San Diego. I need a course to ski. If you are a boarder I respect your need for clean water. Just remember that you like to make big wakes for wakeboarding. In slalom ANY wake can cause serious problems. When we drive we always make sure that all rollers go down the course. If the boarders would also try to do this it would allow us to ski more quickly instead of waiting for the rollers to subside. I agree that a permit to ride on a city course is open to everyone. However without the buoys we might as well barefoot!

[Gramps]

Since the course is a permitted area they only allow ONE boat at a time to be up and running.

You can take 6 passes as a skier down and back being 2 and 4 as a wakeboarder, so the water never has rollers for both user groups.

[TwinTip]

I have seen skiers create huge rollers so this should not be a problem between boarders or skiers. At the end of the day, anyone can create rollers which can be just as disturbing to a boarder as they are to a skier. As long as both, skiers and boarders, are conscious about not damaging property (in this case, the docks, docked boats, and ski course), this problem should be an easy one to fix. If the shoreline could be damaged due to larger wakes, this is a different issue to consider.

A set (assuming 6 or 8 passes) should be considered a set and period. If the skier falls during a pass, they should be picked up and finish the pass (going the same direction obviously). After the determined number of passes has been reached, the next person or boat in line should come up. A chalk board could be used to keep track of the skier, not the boat. Once a skier/boarder has completed their set, they return to the board and put their name down at the bottom of the list. Assuming there are two skiers on the boat and they happen to share a boat (I don't know if you guys need an observer), one of them will have to get ready after the first skier is done with their set. During this time, the next boat could come up for the next set.

Since only one boat is allowed at a given time, it should not matter what discipline is being practiced, slalom or boarding.

How many permits are being given per day? Think of golf or tennis where you have to reserve tee or court time. Think of assigning hours to each permit, once you are past your time, you are out of the course regardless of who has seniority or is the better skier. If there is not another boat in line, you stay and politely leave when the next boat comes in.

One of the advantages of being part of a club is that there are bylaws and members that don't follow them can be kicked out. If the current bylaws don't work for everyone, ask for them to be changed so that there is no controversy between boarders and skiers. Go to the club meetings and raise this issue with the board, see what they have to say.

[MARK-S]

Gramps, As your name implies, I am to old to WB. I have tried, but my body cant take the pounding. Looks fun though. Anyway, To a lake owner, waterskiing is wakeboarding and WB is WS. That make sense. The only thing a city in Minn can do is restrick permits for courses. They would have to make the lake a No wake zone to shut down the boarders. The people on the lake still need to pull their tubes and stuff like that, so the lake land owners only want the skiers off. (200 acre lake with 5 houses on it, One guy is on city concil). The people that WB also ski AWSA and we are friends. We didnt know about the problems, until it was to late to make the change. And we/they would have to protect the permit. We work together, unlike what you are not willing to do on the bay. Just because the dog wized in your boat, you have an attitude. Shake it off. Work together, and it will be better for everybody. Dont let the powers at be ruin it for all involved.

[Gramps]

Twin Tip, The city gives out 10 permits a day, 4 primary and 2 back up from sunrise to noon and 4 primary and 2 back up from noon to sunset. The back up permit holders can show up and if a primary permit holder does not show up then they can put their boat in the water. If the primary shows up later then the back up holder must leave.

Only 1 boat up and running at one time, boats rotate turns however it is worked out between the 4 course users.

Skiers get 6 passes down and back is 2 passes so 3 times down and back.

Wakeboarders get 4 passes so 2 passes down and back.

You are required to drop at the end closest to the dock so you don't beat up the dock and boats.

There is a breakwater at the far end of the course so you can leave the area make your turn and re-enter without throwing rollers down the course.

If you fall you must continue in the direction you were traveling once you are picked up.

You have 1 minute to get up and running once a boat has finished thier pass, if it is a wakeboard boat then the skiers can take a few more minutes if needed, it's pretty much no stress and is worked out between users of the course.

Mark-S The nickname GRAMPS is because I am the oldest person in the group that I hang with, I am over 40 and the pounding from wakeboarding isn't bad if your in half decent shape.

QUOTE.... We work together, unlike what you are not willing to do on the bay. Just because the dog wized in your boat, you have an attitude.

I am more than willing to work it out and to co-exist it's not just the taking a leak in my boat that upset me.

How would you like to have a strange dog deficate on the dock and have the owner just leave it there until the day is done. So everyone has to avoid this pile of dog crap all day long instead of the owner just picking it up.

How would you like a strange dog jumping in and out of your boat for 2 hours even after you have asked the owner to please keep their dog out of your boat.

Yes having a dog take a leak on my boat upsets me, it would upset you too if it happened to you. Urine smell is not easy to get out of carpet or vinyl.

How would you like to simply show up with your pass only to be interogated all day on "why you are there" "this is a ski course not a wakeboard course"

Waiting to pick up a permit on a first come first served basis, get there first and then harassed for it.

Show up to the course with 4 other wakeboard boats and see skiers up and running at dawn, have to wait at the entrance so you don't mess up their run KNOWING THEY DON'T HAVE A PERMIT, idle down the course and then wait again while another skier takes a pass only to have them throw double ups down at the far end as they leave since they can't stay, thrashing the water for 10 minutes.

When I have been there with a few wakeboard boats and a few ski boats we NEVER bother the skiers we just show up, ride and have fun.

What part of getting along are we missing? We don't make a mess, we don't cause trouble, we leave the dock cleaner than when we arrived and we empty the trash.

THE CITY GIVES OUT THE PERMITS not the club, the club has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO CAN GET A PERMIT OR WHO CAN USE THE AREA.

If I had a permit and wanted to tube for 6 hours then I have every right to tube if I want to and vise versa.

It's called giving people respect even if they do a different water discipline than someone else.

As far as moving on don't worry I have.......I have MY OWN piece of the PIE so to speak in a very USER RIDER freindly place just check my personal pictures.

I'm done sparring ride hard.....live long.

[MARK-S]

Join the club, join in on the work and help the members out with $$. Thats all it would take. And also, dont get to close to the guy with the dog in his boat. At the lake I used to ski on, piss would be cleaner than the water that would drip off my ski. You could be skiing down the course and watch cows standing in the water with their tails in the air. Good luck.

[82tique]

Mental note to self: don't bother trying to ride while visiting San Diego (it could be dangerous), instead hang out on shore and watch the locals send their dogs to urinate on each others boats.

[Grant_West]

Hey Aki; dont take this the wrong way. But knowing how much you love your SAN I dont see you letting some ones dog urinate in your boat and you not KILLING them. LOL J/K but seriously you are either GANDI of the wakeboard world or you left out the part where you made the guy lick up the dog pee. :wink:

[Gramps]

Grant, It was in my Mastercraft not the Nautique......if it was the Nautique I would be in the "bighouse" for committing a homicide.

There is no way I would let that happen to my "baby"

The SANTE doesn't visit the bay!

[Grant_West]

Ok at least the dog knew where to go then. LOL

[Mikeski]

I am not sure why but I feel compelled to post to this thread.

I used to ski at the tournaments at that site back in the 70's when the Roberge's used to ski there. We would usually show up a day early and buy a couple practice rides from the locals (pre-arranged). It was nice family oriented club, one of the best in the state in my opinion.

Being around ski courses all my life I can tell you that $45/year is not much, so for now lets just say it's free. It takes lots of time and effort to find and maintain a site like this regardless of it's use. There are numerous hoops cities make us jump through to keep the best ski sites available to boats period. There is always a bird watcher or a row boater that thinks your ski site would better serve his purpose then yours. After all the effort is put into actually setting up and keeping a site we tend to become a little possessive when some Johnny come lately wants to use what we have worked very hard to build without lifting a finger because it's in a city park and he waited his turn in line to get a pass. From the attitude I read through Gramps post I might guess the dog was trained to pee on command.

The big problem is that there are more skiers/boarders that want to use the space then time allows so it becomes a competitive for time on the water. I would suspect you may not have gotten a significantly different reception if you drove in a new Ski Nautique and pulled your slalom ski out. It's funny to see the new members of my club react when I pull up to my club's slalom course in the delta. Some say stupid things like "you must be a member" to ski here, before an older member runs over and shuts them up. So, I think I know what reception you got.

What's legally right is not always what makes sense. Mission Bay ski club has been in this cove for a long time. If you want to use the cove work with the ski club and help them out, it will definately mean more than the $45 bucks membership fee. Meet with a club officer and let them know that you are interested in sharing THEIR site. Let's be realistic, they own this site for all practical purposes regardless of how the permits work. The reason why they limit wakeboarding to 4 passes is time, it is the same for trick skiing, as it has been since the early 70's, and it's the same at all ski sites that I have used. Show up a few times and get to know the people, ask if you can observe a slalom run or two. Learn the driving patterns. Ask them how to change a bouy if you accidentally knock one out. Wait for them to invite you to use their facility. Show some intelligence, check the attitude and don't be a jerk. Nobody owes you access to that space. Don't screw it up for the next wakeboarder that wants to use that cove.

Mikeski

[Gramps]

Mikeski,

Quote:

Show some intelligence, check the attitude and don't be a jerk. Nobody owes you access to that space. Don't screw it up for the next wakeboarder that wants to use that cove.

When meeting someone for the first time do you greet them with a "hey how's it going"

OR

edited by admin

I greet people with a smile, hello and how's it going.

When someone greets me with an attitude that's exactly what they get back.

Let me see the last time I checked it was a PUBLIC beach area, PUBLIC water, PUBLIC dock, PUBLIC course.......it's called TAXES and since I pay them every year and the city is the CONTROLLING body for the PERMITS then I have AS MUCH RIGHT TO USE THE PUBLIC COURSE AS ANY MEMBER OF THE SKI CLUB WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.

edited by admin

Quote:After all the effort is put into actually setting up and keeping a site we tend to become a little possessive when some Johnny come lately wants to use what we have worked very hard to build without lifting a finger because it's in a city park and he waited his turn in line to get a pass. From the attitude I read through Gramps post I might guess the dog was trained to pee on command.

edited by admin

[MARK-S]

Thats why no one aggrees with you Gramps. And thats why you are dealing with the problems you have when you go on the bay. You need to deal and work with people in a friendler manner.

[Gramps]

Apparantly I have offended some of the more "conservative" members of this site with my so called "language" and direct name calling of a certain person that I felt offended me.

I will apologise to those that feel offended and in the future will try to not use such "seedy" words.

I however will not apologise to the afformentioned person that posted right above me.

Jeff, No stress on editing my post..........it's your site and you gotta do what you gotta do.

[Grant_West]

Ill just say that I think Gramps is a solid guy and I cant see him bening a Jack ***, I cant speak for other people, so I wont. But I do know what he is talking about, when he talks about and how he was treated,

I know this because I have been treeted the same way at the local ski coarse, some what un-welcome by the people that look over it. I call them the SKI NAZI'S. LOL :grin: It seems as if you have a tower on your boat you are grouped or type casted.

I respect what they have built and act as a guest in there house when on the coarse, I sort of Tip Toe around. So I can see both sides of the fence. People shoud be treated with respect untill they prove otherwise.

Most people dont do wrong because they are trying to disrespect you or your club 9 times out of 10 they just dont know and need friend to show them the way things are done.

We all love the smooth water. Lets all enjoy it together.

[darrel409]

I bet this debate goes on at every public slalom course there is. I know we had them in the early and mid 90's at Nacimiento's course and Far West Ski Club. That was in the infancy of wakeboarding often times the "culprits" were fisherman or weekend wallys. We have all been on one side or the other and thats the side we support. Skiers/club members vs. everyone else that wants to use the glass. The tourny skiers are all pretty anal about everything:boats,rollers,wakes,drivers,speed,times etc. Thats why we spend so much to have the best boats available equiped with perfect pass and the best drivers we can find. We wake up early, get to the lake, prepare, stretch,adjust skis, wait for your turn...Then some x@#&% drives thru in his new bayliner and everyone is on his a**. Like white choclate said 95% of the time he had no clue as to what he was doing or that he just trashed a course by slaloming his boat thru and pissed off 30 people on the dock. Lots of courses will take 3 or 4 minutes to let the rollers pass by and the skiers are forced to wait longer and start the rotation over. If you dont ski the course you just wont understand, and its hard to expect someone else to "get it". You can ask anyone who has accidentally encroached on a group of tourney skiers at their course how they were treated and most will say that the skiers were jerks and act as if they own the lake. So the skiers think the wakeboarders, fisherman...are out to screw up their good time. The wakeboarders/fisherman/boaters think the skiers are messing up their weekend. No one really wins or walks away with a smile. Its human nature, just ask the israelies or palastinians.

[Grant_West]

Im going to start a new thread talking more directly about, what darrel 409 is talking about, Its a intresting topic

[Mikeski]

Maybe I should not have gotten involved with this thread but since it looks like I have offended Gramps I guess should probably reply.

Like I said in the first post, when I show up at any of the nor. cal. ski sites most people don't recognize me from whan I was actively skiing tournaments in the 70's/80's as a kid. They also don't remember when my dad and I waded in the mud for all afternoon in the cold winter measuring bouys and setting anchors. Nor do they remember me building/painting docks, waxing the jump ramp, cleaning up seaweed, planting trees, or any of the other numerous duties that come with keeping a site in good shape. Just because they spent one of their most recent Saturdays at a work party they feel that they have a greater right to the site then I do. Years ago I decided that skiing the course is not that important to me anymore so I typically just stay away.

Gramps, sorry if I offended you. From what I read in your post it seemed to me that you were acting a bit jerky by saying that since you pay your taxes you have as much right to that space as anybody else there.

If anybody reading this does not understand why people turn into the "slalom nazis" as Grant put it I will try help. Think of the last time you were out boarding in perfect butter like you see on any of the wakeboarding films. Now imagine a couple jet skis entering the scene anniliating the water by doing donuts or even worse, a tuber entering the scene? Should they be there just because they pay thier taxes? Would you invite them to stay or come back soon to your little oasis?

The fact is the needs of the 3 event skier is not exactly the same as the wakeboarder. The idea of 2' waves continuously rolling through the docks is not that inviting to a dedicated slalom skier. However they are not that much different either, both prefer nice protected small waterways. So Gramps, here in this thread some of the people have invited you into thier group. I don't understand why you cannot forget about the past and try to get a little more inline with the group operating as the majority in the public space that has what you desire to use?

OK, so my first post was not completely constructive, but there were parts of it that were. If any wakeboarder wants to use any ski site I might suggest a very constructive approach. There are a few success stories out there. In fact one of the oldest ski clubs on the delta even hosted a wakeboard tournament a couple summers ago.

Now, I believe part of the reason planetnautique exists is for entertainment. So Gramps keep your full caps posts (= screaming) that need editing coming, it's just part of the fun. I wish I could have enjoyed the post before the edits. :razz:

Mikeski

[Gramps]

Grant, Thanks for the kind words Bro.

Mikeski, Yes I took offense to what you said, it is all to easy to read into what people are saying over the net and not get the true feelings they are trying to convey.

I will retract what I stated earlier and extend an apology to you.

I totally understand what you and others are trying to get across but I hope you would put the shoe on the other foot and ask yourself how you would feel if it were you in my place.

Just because someone has vested time in something doesn't give them exclusive rights to it.

Perception and first impressions go a long way in how people will view things, in my eyes the club wasn't very welcoming so at that point why would I join?

Is $45 going to hurt me.......of course not, it's the idea of contributing to something that for me didn't leave a good taste in my mouth or in my mind.

For me there isn't a lot of grey area, it's pretty much black and white.

I have the necessary membership card to obtain a permit for the area, I wait in line just like everyone else. The club has no recourse in the matter, if I don't want to join then so be it. We don't have to be close friends or buddies while there at the same time but at least be considerate of other individuals.

If I walk my dog and it deficates on the street I pick it up, that's called common courtesy. I go out of my way to never walk my dogs near other homeowners yards, this way they don't urinate on the grass or plants which could potentially kill them.

Letting your dog urinate in someones boat is just down right rude and disrespectful, letting your dog crap on the dock and leaving it there for 6 hours is ignorant.

[Mikeski]

Gramps,

Thanks for your apology. As a dog owner myself I would be horrified if my dog ever urinated in somebody's boat. I would definately apologize, clean it up, offer to have the boat detailed, whatever it took to make it right. It's really unbelievable that it actually happened. My dogs are actually trained to go on command to avoid this kind of incident.

When I was frequenting the courses I remember a couple guys that had mastered the routine. They would show up, kiss everybody's butt, say they were on a tight timeframe, run out and take their ride then just disappear. These were the same guys that were never available when there was any work to be done, but just because they put on a good face they were always welcome. It's not right but it seemed to work. With a different approach you just might be able to beat them instead of joining them.

Best of luck,
Mikeski